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by luvdemdogs on 17 January 2010 - 00:01
I agree with Moons again:
"My opinion is there are some great dogs out there living as pets, healthy and strong, brave and intelligent.
No one can tell me any given line is ultimately better to serve man.
Show your show, work your working lines, competition drives these breeds and they do well for those purposes, but don't look down your nose on pets who don't compete with you.
You don't honestly know whats out there simply because they don't compete with you so how can you judge them."
yup yup yup. I have three healthy strong dogs - two from hobby breeders - one from a commercial kennel - I will never compete with them - the whole notion of Schh strikes me aa perhaps a fun hobby, but irrelevant to the quality of the dog except for that sport's purpose. I have no idea where i put the papers for the dogs as the lines are irrelevant to me UNLESS there is something healthwise that crops up - then I would let the breeders know. My dogs all work - but their work is in their ability to provide intuitive comfort - it makes what I seek in them in terms of ability - completely different than that which is sought out in what is currently characterized as working gsds.
Anyone passing judgment on my pets would be a fool, imo - a judgment made out of ignorance warrants no further comment.
Now, if I could just stop my female pet from putting her paw on the keyboard while I'm trying to type this, LOL!!!
"My opinion is there are some great dogs out there living as pets, healthy and strong, brave and intelligent.
No one can tell me any given line is ultimately better to serve man.
Show your show, work your working lines, competition drives these breeds and they do well for those purposes, but don't look down your nose on pets who don't compete with you.
You don't honestly know whats out there simply because they don't compete with you so how can you judge them."
yup yup yup. I have three healthy strong dogs - two from hobby breeders - one from a commercial kennel - I will never compete with them - the whole notion of Schh strikes me aa perhaps a fun hobby, but irrelevant to the quality of the dog except for that sport's purpose. I have no idea where i put the papers for the dogs as the lines are irrelevant to me UNLESS there is something healthwise that crops up - then I would let the breeders know. My dogs all work - but their work is in their ability to provide intuitive comfort - it makes what I seek in them in terms of ability - completely different than that which is sought out in what is currently characterized as working gsds.
Anyone passing judgment on my pets would be a fool, imo - a judgment made out of ignorance warrants no further comment.
Now, if I could just stop my female pet from putting her paw on the keyboard while I'm trying to type this, LOL!!!
by MaggieMae on 17 January 2010 - 00:01
There are many Members on this Site who own various "types" of the GSD -- Pet, Show, Working, including both American and German Bloodlines. When Posters start the Crap and bashing of the Showlines, they are insulting other Members of the Forum who own that type of GSD and are insulting their dogs. I could really throw some humdinger insults out there about Working Lines, but I won't. No, let me clarify that; I am not bashing the Working Line GSD's -- the dogs are just fine -- the Owners aren't.
by Jenni78 on 17 January 2010 - 01:01
Thankfully a few people saw what I saw in a few of these posts...Vom Marischal, GSDSRULE, Red Sable, Michael49.
Why are some show people so sensitive and defensive? A show person asks why their VA dogs have major issues....um, it's in the definition of VA itself. Breeding for beauty- not a good game plan as a general rule. Nonacona has pretty much illustrated what happens when ANYONE breeds for a single purpose, and of course people get touchy when you tell the truth.
Keith, GOD NO!!! NEVER!!! It doesn't take a VA owner or even a rocket scientist to look at a zillion dogs (none of which I can tell apart, BTW) and see exactly why they have genetic issues.
Lots of dogs have genetic issues. Only difference I see is that the show arena makes excuses and glosses over them, and even perpetuates many of them by breeding for a certain appearance, and to hell with whatever heatlh ramifications come with it.
The "working" (sport) crowd often over emphasizes certain traits that lead to a physically healthy, yet mentally unbalanced animal in some cases.
And the pet crowd (vast majority) has a mix of both, and a lot of the golden middle. It's simple statistics, really. There are plenty of BYB dogs w/MAJOR issues...and plenty of them who are as healthy as horses.
It's just numbers, and a MUCH LARGER GENE POOL!
Off to go annoy other people on other websites now . Can't play favorites now, can I?
Why are some show people so sensitive and defensive? A show person asks why their VA dogs have major issues....um, it's in the definition of VA itself. Breeding for beauty- not a good game plan as a general rule. Nonacona has pretty much illustrated what happens when ANYONE breeds for a single purpose, and of course people get touchy when you tell the truth.
Keith, GOD NO!!! NEVER!!! It doesn't take a VA owner or even a rocket scientist to look at a zillion dogs (none of which I can tell apart, BTW) and see exactly why they have genetic issues.
Lots of dogs have genetic issues. Only difference I see is that the show arena makes excuses and glosses over them, and even perpetuates many of them by breeding for a certain appearance, and to hell with whatever heatlh ramifications come with it.
The "working" (sport) crowd often over emphasizes certain traits that lead to a physically healthy, yet mentally unbalanced animal in some cases.
And the pet crowd (vast majority) has a mix of both, and a lot of the golden middle. It's simple statistics, really. There are plenty of BYB dogs w/MAJOR issues...and plenty of them who are as healthy as horses.
It's just numbers, and a MUCH LARGER GENE POOL!
Off to go annoy other people on other websites now . Can't play favorites now, can I?
by VomMarischal on 17 January 2010 - 02:01
Yeah, for my money, all they have to do is some service work, some obedience titles, some agility, SOMEthing besides the beauty contest. A few do, but not many.
by Keith Grossman on 17 January 2010 - 07:01
"Thankfully a few people saw what I saw in a few of these posts...Vom Marischal, GSDSRULE, Red Sable, Michael49."
I would submit that you are all suffering from what I would refer to as, "my dog is better than your dog because he's my dog," syndrome rather than any quantifiable understanding of genetics and that the health problems that you attribute to showline dogs are also present in working lines because they all originate with the same groups of dogs that were heavily inbred during the breed's early years. There is a fairly comprehensive work on the subject, The German Shepherd Dog, A Genetic History by Malcolm B. Willis, that follows the breed from its inception to the early 90's, that I first read maybe a decade ago and am currently about half way through for the second time and learning a lot that I missed the first time. How many of you have read it?
"Why are some show people so sensitive and defensive? A show person asks why their VA dogs have major issues....um, it's in the definition of VA itself. Breeding for beauty- not a good game plan as a general rule. Nonacona has pretty much illustrated what happens when ANYONE breeds for a single purpose, and of course people get touchy when you tell the truth."
No one is getting defensive but to suggest that major health issues are in the "definition of VA itself" paints the world with a broad brush, shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the heritability of genetic traits and smacks of people whose understanding of the aforementioned is based on what they have read on the internet (written by people who, like them, feel some need to convince themselves that their dogs are "better") rather than on any real research. As for people who breed dogs for a single purpose, when did the definition of work for a herding dog get changed to the dogs' willingness to bite people to the exclusion of everything else? The German Shepherd Dog was never intended to be the best at any given job but a dog that is able to perform any job well.
"Keith, GOD NO!!! NEVER!!! It doesn't take a VA owner or even a rocket scientist to look at a zillion dogs (none of which I can tell apart, BTW) and see exactly why they have genetic issues."
That you can't tell any of these dogs apart speaks volumes. Perhaps when you have more experience in the breed, you'll be able to look past similar coloring and be able to identify subtle structural differences and understand how they affect the ability of the dog to do they job for which it was intended. Form follows function.
"Lots of dogs have genetic issues. Only difference I see is that the show arena makes excuses and glosses over them, and even perpetuates many of them by breeding for a certain appearance, and to hell with whatever health ramifications come with it."
All dogs have genetic issues as do all people. I am interested in your justification for the claim that the "show" arena glosses over them and the "working" arena does not.
"The "working" (sport) crowd often over emphasizes certain traits that lead to a physically healthy, yet mentally unbalanced animal in some cases."
Stability of temperament is a hallmark of the breed, not an option, and as I have discussed previously, there is no monopoly on physical health on either side of the working/show divide. All of these dogs come (or should, which I will discuss momentarily) from the same core group of dogs used to create the breed and all carry the same propensity for the genetic faults inherent in the breed.
So, let's revisit what I posted earlier...the benefits of heterosis or what is commonly referred to as hybrid vigo
I would submit that you are all suffering from what I would refer to as, "my dog is better than your dog because he's my dog," syndrome rather than any quantifiable understanding of genetics and that the health problems that you attribute to showline dogs are also present in working lines because they all originate with the same groups of dogs that were heavily inbred during the breed's early years. There is a fairly comprehensive work on the subject, The German Shepherd Dog, A Genetic History by Malcolm B. Willis, that follows the breed from its inception to the early 90's, that I first read maybe a decade ago and am currently about half way through for the second time and learning a lot that I missed the first time. How many of you have read it?
"Why are some show people so sensitive and defensive? A show person asks why their VA dogs have major issues....um, it's in the definition of VA itself. Breeding for beauty- not a good game plan as a general rule. Nonacona has pretty much illustrated what happens when ANYONE breeds for a single purpose, and of course people get touchy when you tell the truth."
No one is getting defensive but to suggest that major health issues are in the "definition of VA itself" paints the world with a broad brush, shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the heritability of genetic traits and smacks of people whose understanding of the aforementioned is based on what they have read on the internet (written by people who, like them, feel some need to convince themselves that their dogs are "better") rather than on any real research. As for people who breed dogs for a single purpose, when did the definition of work for a herding dog get changed to the dogs' willingness to bite people to the exclusion of everything else? The German Shepherd Dog was never intended to be the best at any given job but a dog that is able to perform any job well.
"Keith, GOD NO!!! NEVER!!! It doesn't take a VA owner or even a rocket scientist to look at a zillion dogs (none of which I can tell apart, BTW) and see exactly why they have genetic issues."
That you can't tell any of these dogs apart speaks volumes. Perhaps when you have more experience in the breed, you'll be able to look past similar coloring and be able to identify subtle structural differences and understand how they affect the ability of the dog to do they job for which it was intended. Form follows function.
"Lots of dogs have genetic issues. Only difference I see is that the show arena makes excuses and glosses over them, and even perpetuates many of them by breeding for a certain appearance, and to hell with whatever health ramifications come with it."
All dogs have genetic issues as do all people. I am interested in your justification for the claim that the "show" arena glosses over them and the "working" arena does not.
"The "working" (sport) crowd often over emphasizes certain traits that lead to a physically healthy, yet mentally unbalanced animal in some cases."
Stability of temperament is a hallmark of the breed, not an option, and as I have discussed previously, there is no monopoly on physical health on either side of the working/show divide. All of these dogs come (or should, which I will discuss momentarily) from the same core group of dogs used to create the breed and all carry the same propensity for the genetic faults inherent in the breed.
So, let's revisit what I posted earlier...the benefits of heterosis or what is commonly referred to as hybrid vigo
by Keith Grossman on 17 January 2010 - 07:01
I got cut off and am tired...I'll re-write the rest of my discussion tomorrow.
by Jenni78 on 17 January 2010 - 16:01
LOL, Keith. You'd think I said you have a small penis or something.
Let me explain something quickly- I was being sarcastic when I said I can't tell them apart. It was an offhand, rather humorous (in my eyes anyway), comment referring to the fact that these dogs are judged on CONFORMATION. Yes. CONFORMATION. What is conformation? How well something CONFORMS>>>supposedly to the standard, but lately it seems to be more to each other and whatever trend is "in" right now. Why else would people be literally painting their dogs if VA shows are not just a beauty contest?
When you breed for one particular trait over and over, you are exacerbating other traits that may (or may not) go hand in hand with the desired trait. Then, you repeat this a zillion times, and now you've narrowed your gene pool to a point where statistically, the probability of what used to be a rare recessive flaw increases and is now occuring more frequently. And so on and so forth. I really don't see why I need to own a VA dog to have this most basic view/understanding of genetics. Please enlighten me. Actually, don't. I'm kind of bored with this.
As an aside, of course you gloss over my equal criticism of the single purpose "working" dogs (who rarely actually work), and hang onto what you deem criticism of your prized black (ish) and unnaturally reds.
Let me explain something quickly- I was being sarcastic when I said I can't tell them apart. It was an offhand, rather humorous (in my eyes anyway), comment referring to the fact that these dogs are judged on CONFORMATION. Yes. CONFORMATION. What is conformation? How well something CONFORMS>>>supposedly to the standard, but lately it seems to be more to each other and whatever trend is "in" right now. Why else would people be literally painting their dogs if VA shows are not just a beauty contest?
When you breed for one particular trait over and over, you are exacerbating other traits that may (or may not) go hand in hand with the desired trait. Then, you repeat this a zillion times, and now you've narrowed your gene pool to a point where statistically, the probability of what used to be a rare recessive flaw increases and is now occuring more frequently. And so on and so forth. I really don't see why I need to own a VA dog to have this most basic view/understanding of genetics. Please enlighten me. Actually, don't. I'm kind of bored with this.
As an aside, of course you gloss over my equal criticism of the single purpose "working" dogs (who rarely actually work), and hang onto what you deem criticism of your prized black (ish) and unnaturally reds.
by MaggieMae on 17 January 2010 - 16:01
Keith -- I hope you finish your post; I found it very interesting.
by yoshy on 17 January 2010 - 17:01
Keith,
man i like a lot of your posts and they are generally very intelligent and to the point. however i dont know how someone can say others have no understanding of genetics when some obviously put a lot of work into there breedings, understand the history of this breed, and study genetics for the betterment of there own breedings.
Anyone with any experience/ research with genetics and breeding knows when you close off a portion of a genes you end up with faults as well as strengths. if you circle off another group within the original portion you inherit that many more issues by not having the diversification needed. Also, I think we all know the faults that follow breeding for a specific strength with disregard to all others.As this happens quite often. Statistically speaking through percentages designer dogs in all species have far more issues do to closed gene pools and poor breeding. Its a simple fact that people that follow that trend should recognize and own.
This is not a question of anyones dog is better. However show dogs in a lot of breeds tend to have more inherited issues both mental and physical. If thats what you want fine but own the flaws that come with it.
The fads of the show ring are devastating to many breeds not only the GSD.
man i like a lot of your posts and they are generally very intelligent and to the point. however i dont know how someone can say others have no understanding of genetics when some obviously put a lot of work into there breedings, understand the history of this breed, and study genetics for the betterment of there own breedings.
Anyone with any experience/ research with genetics and breeding knows when you close off a portion of a genes you end up with faults as well as strengths. if you circle off another group within the original portion you inherit that many more issues by not having the diversification needed. Also, I think we all know the faults that follow breeding for a specific strength with disregard to all others.As this happens quite often. Statistically speaking through percentages designer dogs in all species have far more issues do to closed gene pools and poor breeding. Its a simple fact that people that follow that trend should recognize and own.
This is not a question of anyones dog is better. However show dogs in a lot of breeds tend to have more inherited issues both mental and physical. If thats what you want fine but own the flaws that come with it.
The fads of the show ring are devastating to many breeds not only the GSD.
by Red Sable on 17 January 2010 - 17:01
"So, let's revisit what I posted earlier"
Let's not and say we did.
Sounds like you are copying word for word from the book you are reading, why not just let us go out and read it for ourselves?
You must be a roller coaster of excitement on a date.
Anyone remember the movie Airplane 2 the Sequel?, - ah ya
Just have a look at your VA showline dogs,and compare them with the 'same core group' you so love to talk about. Same genetic structure Keith? and than you tell Jenni Form Follows Function? LOL!
Let's not and say we did.
Sounds like you are copying word for word from the book you are reading, why not just let us go out and read it for ourselves?
You must be a roller coaster of excitement on a date.
Anyone remember the movie Airplane 2 the Sequel?, - ah ya
Just have a look at your VA showline dogs,and compare them with the 'same core group' you so love to talk about. Same genetic structure Keith? and than you tell Jenni Form Follows Function? LOL!
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