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by Jenni78 on 18 January 2010 - 20:01
Debby-I highlighted my responses to your last post.
I'm sure that they are all you say they are. What did I say my dogs were? I don't recall talking about my dogs.
I wish you all the best. But don't cut down a showline that can be JUST as stable in all areas, if not more so than your's. Ok, you still want to play the victim here; I give up. I never said SHIT about what showlines are or aren't except in relation to health. I am still laughing about the 'more stable than yours" part though. LMFAO. Who's doing the "my dog's better than your dog ?!
Where do you live? NE IL Maybe come by my house and visit my dogs and then you can judge and I'll buy lunch! Let me assure you I don't care about your dogs or judging them. Like I said, you can harp and harp about how great they are and I will say I DON'T CARE. Why? Because I never said they weren't; I simply said that genetically speaking from a health standpoint, VA dogs have some issues. I'm sorry if this upsets you. I will buy my own lunch. I truly had no interest in debating show lines vs. working lines or really anything but genes and how they affect health.
ALLOW ME TO REPOST MY POINT:
Truth is, I really don't care enough to think enough about other people's dogs to bash them. Call me self-centered, but while everyone is busy arguing about show vs. work, I will concentrate on breeding dogs for versatility, working ability, health, and MENTAL STABILITY. Not necessarily in that order, but it doesn't matter, because if they don't have it ALL, I don't want anything to do with them.
I'm tired now.
Yoschy, I'll post about them in another topic; I don't want to derail this any further than it already is from the OP's question.
I'm sure that they are all you say they are. What did I say my dogs were? I don't recall talking about my dogs.
I wish you all the best. But don't cut down a showline that can be JUST as stable in all areas, if not more so than your's. Ok, you still want to play the victim here; I give up. I never said SHIT about what showlines are or aren't except in relation to health. I am still laughing about the 'more stable than yours" part though. LMFAO. Who's doing the "my dog's better than your dog ?!
Where do you live? NE IL Maybe come by my house and visit my dogs and then you can judge and I'll buy lunch! Let me assure you I don't care about your dogs or judging them. Like I said, you can harp and harp about how great they are and I will say I DON'T CARE. Why? Because I never said they weren't; I simply said that genetically speaking from a health standpoint, VA dogs have some issues. I'm sorry if this upsets you. I will buy my own lunch. I truly had no interest in debating show lines vs. working lines or really anything but genes and how they affect health.
ALLOW ME TO REPOST MY POINT:
Truth is, I really don't care enough to think enough about other people's dogs to bash them. Call me self-centered, but while everyone is busy arguing about show vs. work, I will concentrate on breeding dogs for versatility, working ability, health, and MENTAL STABILITY. Not necessarily in that order, but it doesn't matter, because if they don't have it ALL, I don't want anything to do with them.
I'm tired now.
Yoschy, I'll post about them in another topic; I don't want to derail this any further than it already is from the OP's question.
by 4pack on 18 January 2010 - 20:01
I don't think it's "Bashing" when we are all full aware maybe 5% of Top SL dogs can keep up with "midrange" not even the Top 5% of WL dogs. If we asked the top 5% of SL to compete with the top 5% of WL, there would be no comparison. At best a super working line dog works as well as a Regional level WL dog but not a National or World level competetor and that is just downright sad.
I know I know, someone will say it isn't so, but come on, list the names of all the SL who have competed and done "well" at the WUSV, even the BSP. You will see a few but they aren't at the top of the list. Then you can cry, well it's a numbers game, more % of WL competing, well yes, because these are the dogs that can! It's a put your $ where your mouth is question. What VA dog has competed in any working venue with any success? We may see a few SL dogs that can and do work but they are SG dogs or lower, maybe V rated if your lucky. There are people breeding SL to work but they aren't VA dogs. VA is a guarentee the dog is a POS in the work. You just can't argue that fact. Yet some still will try. "Oh you can't work a dog worth that ammount of $, he could get injured." Gag, look at all the racehorses blowing tendons and shattering hooves, doing what they do and they don't come cheap.
It's 1 excuse after another and some of us are sick of the excusses.
I commend those who do work their showlines like a real dog and breed them for usefullness but you said it yourself djc, your the rogues. Pretty sad when you have to go rogue to do what was meant for the breed in the first place.
It's not about crying "not all workingline dogs can work either", yes we all know this but how are you going to get work, if your not even trying for work? Getting what you shoot for isn't 100%, it's probably not even 50%, so you have to breed for more drive, more aggression, more stability, more courage to get what your after. It's NOT OK to let any of that slip for looks, there is NO room for less when you trying to get the best working dogs out there.
I know I know, someone will say it isn't so, but come on, list the names of all the SL who have competed and done "well" at the WUSV, even the BSP. You will see a few but they aren't at the top of the list. Then you can cry, well it's a numbers game, more % of WL competing, well yes, because these are the dogs that can! It's a put your $ where your mouth is question. What VA dog has competed in any working venue with any success? We may see a few SL dogs that can and do work but they are SG dogs or lower, maybe V rated if your lucky. There are people breeding SL to work but they aren't VA dogs. VA is a guarentee the dog is a POS in the work. You just can't argue that fact. Yet some still will try. "Oh you can't work a dog worth that ammount of $, he could get injured." Gag, look at all the racehorses blowing tendons and shattering hooves, doing what they do and they don't come cheap.
It's 1 excuse after another and some of us are sick of the excusses.
I commend those who do work their showlines like a real dog and breed them for usefullness but you said it yourself djc, your the rogues. Pretty sad when you have to go rogue to do what was meant for the breed in the first place.
It's not about crying "not all workingline dogs can work either", yes we all know this but how are you going to get work, if your not even trying for work? Getting what you shoot for isn't 100%, it's probably not even 50%, so you have to breed for more drive, more aggression, more stability, more courage to get what your after. It's NOT OK to let any of that slip for looks, there is NO room for less when you trying to get the best working dogs out there.
by gsdsch3v on 18 January 2010 - 21:01
Wow, this thread is becoming like a train wreck, you just can't look away and if you aren't careful you get sucked into it. So unable to resist the black hole like pull any longer here goes.
Maggie mae wrote:
djc said --
Breeding ONLY for work will give us coyote ugly dogs that bounce off the walls and are socially dangerous.
------------
Yep
I must disagree here, I find that for my working dog to do her job that she MUST without a doubt be socially stable. What good is my dog at providing security and deterrence at a large event such as the Pendleton Roundup/Happy canyon pagent if she is stuck in the car? What good is it if the task force team can't do their job while she is doing hers? My fellow officers aren't going to want to work with my K9 if they always fear getting tagged by her. Her son, out of a carefully planned breeding for the purpose of producing working dogs, is in training to take over for her. He also is expected to be solid, and stable when around people, we train with "back up " present so he is used to it and knows what is expected of him. I could not use him or his mother if they were not very mentally stable. In fact one of the things that I liked about his father was that he was also clear in the head.
To sum it up to breed for work MUST include social stability or the animal in question is useless!
As to looking like a coyote, you be the judge.
www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/492204.html
www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/progeny_pictures/492204.html
C. Neubert and K9 Barbie
Maggie mae wrote:
djc said --
Breeding ONLY for work will give us coyote ugly dogs that bounce off the walls and are socially dangerous.
------------
Yep
I must disagree here, I find that for my working dog to do her job that she MUST without a doubt be socially stable. What good is my dog at providing security and deterrence at a large event such as the Pendleton Roundup/Happy canyon pagent if she is stuck in the car? What good is it if the task force team can't do their job while she is doing hers? My fellow officers aren't going to want to work with my K9 if they always fear getting tagged by her. Her son, out of a carefully planned breeding for the purpose of producing working dogs, is in training to take over for her. He also is expected to be solid, and stable when around people, we train with "back up " present so he is used to it and knows what is expected of him. I could not use him or his mother if they were not very mentally stable. In fact one of the things that I liked about his father was that he was also clear in the head.
To sum it up to breed for work MUST include social stability or the animal in question is useless!
As to looking like a coyote, you be the judge.
www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/492204.html
www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/progeny_pictures/492204.html
C. Neubert and K9 Barbie
by Jenni78 on 18 January 2010 - 21:01
Gsdsch3V, you should've just looked away, LOL! You're absolutely right; I don't think any unstable dog, regardless of what lines he/she is from is worth the cost of the bullet I'd use to shoot it in the head. Stability is my number 1 "MUST HAVE." Then health and working ability, and when all's said and done, I think a good strong healthy and stable dog IS good looking.
"Coyote ugly and socially dangerous" are pretty weak attempts to derail the argument, IMO. They simply don't stand up.
4pack, sheesh. You had to go and state the obvious that they're pretending doesn't exist, didn't you? Always can count on you to cause trouble, LOL. You are right; while there are surely showlines that can work, the problem most of us have w/showlines is the breeding for color and odd structure (yes, to me it looks plain ODD, and that's being kind. I really mean crippled), is that health suffers. So, while you may stumble upon a healthy one, or one that can work, or one that's super stable, the chances of one dog having all 3 is slimmer in the VA dogs than in other lines, and most definitely slimmer than w/working lines. I'm not bashing good looking V rated dogs. I'm quite proud of my own.
MaggieMae, is this what you mean by "coyote ugly and socially dangerous"? Must be- he fits all your criteria to be such.
i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Jenwilliams918/Caleb/JamesCaleb10-6-09002.jpg
by MaggieMae on 18 January 2010 - 21:01
The dog in the Link you provided is very pretty. There are many pretty Working Line dogs .... then are also many that look like a "mixed breed" junk-yard dog.
Ok, many Working Line owners put down the Show Lines .... how would you guys feel if the owners of the TRUE Working GSD put down the Sport dogs ... which I believe that most of you are referring to when you say "working."
Anyway, I've been in too many arguments about this same subject on this Board. I love my dog for who he is. I love his personality, and I often look out the window when he is in the yard and get a smile and laugh at his "antics" and I admire how beautiful he is...I would not be happy with a Sable Working Line dog. Nuff said.
Ok, many Working Line owners put down the Show Lines .... how would you guys feel if the owners of the TRUE Working GSD put down the Sport dogs ... which I believe that most of you are referring to when you say "working."
Anyway, I've been in too many arguments about this same subject on this Board. I love my dog for who he is. I love his personality, and I often look out the window when he is in the yard and get a smile and laugh at his "antics" and I admire how beautiful he is...I would not be happy with a Sable Working Line dog. Nuff said.
by Keith Grossman on 18 January 2010 - 22:01
"i have said before there are diamonds in the ruff. but do you have an example of a showline dog on active duty or retired that possesses the physical and mental capability to perform his or her job? One that is in a role/outfit that put a lot of demand on the dog day in and day out. What was this dogs shelf life for active service as well?"
Yoshy,
There are a variety of reasons why police departments and military K9 units use the dogs they do. First and foremost is cost. The transition from "show" to "working" lines started when the show lines being brought in from Germany became prohibitively expensive compared to the working lines. Departments have a finite amount of money to spend and if the cost of one dog with no training is as much as the cost of another fully trained, they're going to spend their money on the latter. Now that many working line dogs cost as much as show line dogs, our local PD has began transitioning to Dutch Shepherds for exactly this reason. Does this necessarily mean that working lines no longer possess"the physical and mental capability" to perform the job? Of course it doesn't any more than it means that Dutch Shepherds are better suited for it...it just means that the latter are adequate and they're cheaper.
Having said that, I come from a military law enforcement background and if I had to choose between an average show line dog and an average working line dog as my patrol partner, I would choose the working line dog every time. The reason for this is not that I believe the show line dog doesn't necessarily have the physical and/or mental capacity for the job but because the working line dog will most likely have a degree of sharpness that the show line does not. I define sharpness as the threshold at which a given dog perceives something to be a threat and if I am expecting the dog top have my back, I want him/her to look at every situation as a potentially dangerous one. Don't misunderstand me; I do not consider this a flaw or a weakness of temperament nor do I believe for a minute that these dogs lack self-confidence; they just look at the world a bit differently. This also explains why many working line dogs excel at the protection phase of schutzhund; it simply takes less for the helper to trip the switch that moves the dog from prey to defense.
I had a show line male many years ago who loved to train and loved to bite but the dog really didn't ever perceive anything as a threat so he worked in prey all of the time. At some point, I decided that I'd never see him work in defense without the helper actually hurting him and training became an exercise in futility. Could he get titled? Sure! Would I breed him? Not on a bet. Conversely, I had a female who came on to the field more or less already in defense...not what I'm looking for either for a lot of different reasons. Somewhere in the middle...
We could argue all day about which particular temperament is best or correct but what it really comes down to is which particular temperament is best for a given job. The best dog for a patrol dog is not the best dog for a herding dog is not the best dog for a personal service dog is not the best dog for a search and rescue dog, ad infinitum. The German Shepherd Dog was intended to be a dog that is good at everything and the best at nothing and the various temperaments available in the breed lend themselves well to exactly that.
Many people get into this breed and all of the associated hype because they believe that if they own a badass dog, they are somehow a badass by proxy; they are living vicariously through their dog(s) and, in my opinion, that is the biggest problem in the
Yoshy,
There are a variety of reasons why police departments and military K9 units use the dogs they do. First and foremost is cost. The transition from "show" to "working" lines started when the show lines being brought in from Germany became prohibitively expensive compared to the working lines. Departments have a finite amount of money to spend and if the cost of one dog with no training is as much as the cost of another fully trained, they're going to spend their money on the latter. Now that many working line dogs cost as much as show line dogs, our local PD has began transitioning to Dutch Shepherds for exactly this reason. Does this necessarily mean that working lines no longer possess"the physical and mental capability" to perform the job? Of course it doesn't any more than it means that Dutch Shepherds are better suited for it...it just means that the latter are adequate and they're cheaper.
Having said that, I come from a military law enforcement background and if I had to choose between an average show line dog and an average working line dog as my patrol partner, I would choose the working line dog every time. The reason for this is not that I believe the show line dog doesn't necessarily have the physical and/or mental capacity for the job but because the working line dog will most likely have a degree of sharpness that the show line does not. I define sharpness as the threshold at which a given dog perceives something to be a threat and if I am expecting the dog top have my back, I want him/her to look at every situation as a potentially dangerous one. Don't misunderstand me; I do not consider this a flaw or a weakness of temperament nor do I believe for a minute that these dogs lack self-confidence; they just look at the world a bit differently. This also explains why many working line dogs excel at the protection phase of schutzhund; it simply takes less for the helper to trip the switch that moves the dog from prey to defense.
I had a show line male many years ago who loved to train and loved to bite but the dog really didn't ever perceive anything as a threat so he worked in prey all of the time. At some point, I decided that I'd never see him work in defense without the helper actually hurting him and training became an exercise in futility. Could he get titled? Sure! Would I breed him? Not on a bet. Conversely, I had a female who came on to the field more or less already in defense...not what I'm looking for either for a lot of different reasons. Somewhere in the middle...
We could argue all day about which particular temperament is best or correct but what it really comes down to is which particular temperament is best for a given job. The best dog for a patrol dog is not the best dog for a herding dog is not the best dog for a personal service dog is not the best dog for a search and rescue dog, ad infinitum. The German Shepherd Dog was intended to be a dog that is good at everything and the best at nothing and the various temperaments available in the breed lend themselves well to exactly that.
Many people get into this breed and all of the associated hype because they believe that if they own a badass dog, they are somehow a badass by proxy; they are living vicariously through their dog(s) and, in my opinion, that is the biggest problem in the
by Keith Grossman on 18 January 2010 - 22:01
...breed today. Don't get caught up in it.
by 4pack on 18 January 2010 - 22:01
As far as Maggie's comment, I just let it go. No need to even waste my time responding to that. I neither consider my dogs ugly or unstable. Anyone who thinks working line = unstable bitting machine, doesn't know jack and refuses to learn.
I did once however have a coyote ugly dog who was affraid of thunder storms, but I have no idea of his breeding or upbringing, I got him out of the pound, he couldn't have worked to save his or my life but that's not what I had him for. Great around kids and wanted nothing more than to be with me, every second he could. Nice pet, no working GSD. No doubt some backyard breeder concoction of whatever they had at home.
So some don't even breed for looks or work. Ooh look, they have AKC papers, that's all that counts! When AKC no longer turns heads, seeks "pink papers".
I did once however have a coyote ugly dog who was affraid of thunder storms, but I have no idea of his breeding or upbringing, I got him out of the pound, he couldn't have worked to save his or my life but that's not what I had him for. Great around kids and wanted nothing more than to be with me, every second he could. Nice pet, no working GSD. No doubt some backyard breeder concoction of whatever they had at home.
So some don't even breed for looks or work. Ooh look, they have AKC papers, that's all that counts! When AKC no longer turns heads, seeks "pink papers".
by MaggieMae on 18 January 2010 - 22:01
Keith -- your last paragraph "Nailed It" !!!
by Jenni78 on 18 January 2010 - 22:01
Keith, thank God! You're making sense again. Thought we'd lost ya.
Maggie, thank you. And no, when I say "working" I do not mean "sport." Sometimes they are both, but typically I will separate them. I think I alluded to something similar in one of my posts.
Maggie, thank you. And no, when I say "working" I do not mean "sport." Sometimes they are both, but typically I will separate them. I think I alluded to something similar in one of my posts.
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