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by Red Sable on 19 February 2010 - 19:02
" JMHO."
Lyn
...and mine too.
by Mystere on 19 February 2010 - 19:02
Lyn,
I agree with you, but I would add that the temperament, as well as the structure to work all day, must be addressed. IMO, the temperment is a "deal breaker."
I agree with you, but I would add that the temperament, as well as the structure to work all day, must be addressed. IMO, the temperment is a "deal breaker."
by yellowrose of Texas on 19 February 2010 - 20:02
Heidelberg Kennels in Spring, Tex owner Gene Thompson has nothing any conscientous owner of a well bred german would want..FOr years his long snout, walk on hocks and blind, inbred shepherds are nothing but a disgrace..He pays his companion , to show and for years has bred show dogs..look at the hocks and the way they stand and walk ...Hans posted one that looks better than most...they waddle to and fro knocking together the back hocks..
Before you buy one, ask any Texas vet of any standing what they have seen ,had to treat and argue with Gene Thompson and his staff..Unless you buy his fish food he makes and sells, your dog has no guarantee...hundreds of hip problems and dogs that just stare at you...
He is the kennel that will not give you an AKC registration until you breed and give him back so many of each litter..He holds the akc paperwork in folders in Houston.. I worked in the dog program with Harris Co SO and we dealt with him and his problems all the time..he called all german bred dogs from German parents,,,,vicious and crazy
Akc can tell you what he does with the paperwork ...many many many complaints to akc but they can't help you , as you sign a contract with him when you buy your pup , half of which no one understands what he means...He gives you a Heidleburg registration...not an AKC.. my vet went to bat for an older lady who wanted to bred her female and she found out she had no papers with akc. in her name...they are in Gene Thompsons name..Heidleburg and until she breeds and he registers the litters under his name and gets two pups you don't get that right...
This was back in 96 when I had dealings with him. HE did go to court for me on a case that HArris Co SO. prosecuted one of his former employess on dog charges,,,but he didn't want to.., we subpeoned him...
He lives in a mansion and has a huge place..just check out the references before you buy unless you just want a dog.
Before you buy one, ask any Texas vet of any standing what they have seen ,had to treat and argue with Gene Thompson and his staff..Unless you buy his fish food he makes and sells, your dog has no guarantee...hundreds of hip problems and dogs that just stare at you...
He is the kennel that will not give you an AKC registration until you breed and give him back so many of each litter..He holds the akc paperwork in folders in Houston.. I worked in the dog program with Harris Co SO and we dealt with him and his problems all the time..he called all german bred dogs from German parents,,,,vicious and crazy
Akc can tell you what he does with the paperwork ...many many many complaints to akc but they can't help you , as you sign a contract with him when you buy your pup , half of which no one understands what he means...He gives you a Heidleburg registration...not an AKC.. my vet went to bat for an older lady who wanted to bred her female and she found out she had no papers with akc. in her name...they are in Gene Thompsons name..Heidleburg and until she breeds and he registers the litters under his name and gets two pups you don't get that right...
This was back in 96 when I had dealings with him. HE did go to court for me on a case that HArris Co SO. prosecuted one of his former employess on dog charges,,,but he didn't want to.., we subpeoned him...
He lives in a mansion and has a huge place..just check out the references before you buy unless you just want a dog.
by LynOD on 19 February 2010 - 20:02
Mystere,
Could you please clarify for me what you mean?? What type of temperment is a deal breaker?? One that can't stop working and be clam? That I would agree with. Or do you mean they need a temperment that will allow them to work all day if need be?? Just not quite sure what you mean. I have 3 working line GSDs all have very nice temperments. My oldest was one of the best therapy dogs with children I have ever seen. She helped my mom raise my niece. I can take my dogs anywhere and they know how to behave, of course training doesn't hurt. LOL
Lyn
Could you please clarify for me what you mean?? What type of temperment is a deal breaker?? One that can't stop working and be clam? That I would agree with. Or do you mean they need a temperment that will allow them to work all day if need be?? Just not quite sure what you mean. I have 3 working line GSDs all have very nice temperments. My oldest was one of the best therapy dogs with children I have ever seen. She helped my mom raise my niece. I can take my dogs anywhere and they know how to behave, of course training doesn't hurt. LOL
Lyn
by beetree on 19 February 2010 - 20:02
It still feels like the Emperor's New Clothes to me. 
It's all my fault because I didn't read the right dog book that mentioned Max, so when I thought a pedigreed dog meant some breeder cared to breed a healthy GSD as a pet for someone, I had no idea I should have asked for a black and red one! Maggie knew better, though.
And no wonder you all get so upset, my name is Legion...
I do appreciate your detailed reply Mystere. I still think I need to explore the idea of what came first, was it the pet buyer who first wanted a red and black dog, or was it the breeder who wanted to show red and black dogs?
It seems what I am getting from reading these posts is a kind of" trickle up" theory and I just can't seem to get myself to buy it, just yet. Lordy knows I am trying, LOL
Prager, do you think of people like me-- the GSD pet person, as a necessary evil?
It's all my fault because I didn't read the right dog book that mentioned Max, so when I thought a pedigreed dog meant some breeder cared to breed a healthy GSD as a pet for someone, I had no idea I should have asked for a black and red one! Maggie knew better, though. And no wonder you all get so upset, my name is Legion...
I do appreciate your detailed reply Mystere. I still think I need to explore the idea of what came first, was it the pet buyer who first wanted a red and black dog, or was it the breeder who wanted to show red and black dogs?
It seems what I am getting from reading these posts is a kind of" trickle up" theory and I just can't seem to get myself to buy it, just yet. Lordy knows I am trying, LOL
Prager, do you think of people like me-- the GSD pet person, as a necessary evil?
by LynOD on 19 February 2010 - 21:02
Mystere
After re reading your post I get waht you mean and I agree Temperament is of the utmost of importance. But a dog that is deemed worthy of breeding should be both soundly structured and have the temperment to boot or they should not be being bred. I am not a breeder, I consider myself a pet owner first and formost. I do train in Obedience and agility, but that is secondary to my dogs being family members.
Lyn
After re reading your post I get waht you mean and I agree Temperament is of the utmost of importance. But a dog that is deemed worthy of breeding should be both soundly structured and have the temperment to boot or they should not be being bred. I am not a breeder, I consider myself a pet owner first and formost. I do train in Obedience and agility, but that is secondary to my dogs being family members.
Lyn
by MaggieMae on 19 February 2010 - 22:02
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by Mystere on 19 February 2010 - 22:02
Lyn,
I completely agree that a dog should have sound structure and temperament to be bred. That's why I have always been careful to check out the parents, and, if possible, what they produced previously. If a breeder were to tell me that I could not approach the parent(s), I'd have to pass. But, all things being equal, temperament is just more important to me, if the angulation, size, color, etc. were a bit less than ideal.
Cosmetic issues, of course, mean absolutely nothing. I have a bitch right now with a "crook" in her tail. No other puppy from two litters has one, and none of the half-siblings. It drives me nuts--I just know we will have to get a koermeister drunk to get a "G" rating, and I am used to "Sg"/"V" ratings for my working line dogs!! Sitll, I like having a good-looking dog. I like people commenting on my beautiful gsd in the park. If I wanted an ugly dog, I would have a Neapolitan mastiff.
Beetree,
I don't understand what you mean by "trickle up theory." Would you explain?
As for which came first on the red & black issue, I think it is the public's perception that gsds are red & black, based on ads in Dog World, for example. I believe that the breeders have shaped that perception, because it is one of the results of their ads in dog magazines . If you check out, e.g., Dog World, you will see that most of the breed ads are for German show lines. Some of my show breeder friends tell me that they won't breed to a sable dog, because they could never sell sable puppies; John Q. Public wants red & black. Oddly enough, a couple of them have the most eye-catching ads in the magazines.
I know I always have someone out in public ask what my sable male is. Some insist that he must be a wolf hybrid, because he's not red and black with a saddle, or "Doberman markings." I always explain sable, and the color dominance. Then, they want to know why they don't see sables more often, if it is supposed to be the dominant color!
I completely agree that a dog should have sound structure and temperament to be bred. That's why I have always been careful to check out the parents, and, if possible, what they produced previously. If a breeder were to tell me that I could not approach the parent(s), I'd have to pass. But, all things being equal, temperament is just more important to me, if the angulation, size, color, etc. were a bit less than ideal.
Cosmetic issues, of course, mean absolutely nothing. I have a bitch right now with a "crook" in her tail. No other puppy from two litters has one, and none of the half-siblings. It drives me nuts--I just know we will have to get a koermeister drunk to get a "G" rating, and I am used to "Sg"/"V" ratings for my working line dogs!! Sitll, I like having a good-looking dog. I like people commenting on my beautiful gsd in the park. If I wanted an ugly dog, I would have a Neapolitan mastiff.
Beetree,
I don't understand what you mean by "trickle up theory." Would you explain?
As for which came first on the red & black issue, I think it is the public's perception that gsds are red & black, based on ads in Dog World, for example. I believe that the breeders have shaped that perception, because it is one of the results of their ads in dog magazines . If you check out, e.g., Dog World, you will see that most of the breed ads are for German show lines. Some of my show breeder friends tell me that they won't breed to a sable dog, because they could never sell sable puppies; John Q. Public wants red & black. Oddly enough, a couple of them have the most eye-catching ads in the magazines.
I know I always have someone out in public ask what my sable male is. Some insist that he must be a wolf hybrid, because he's not red and black with a saddle, or "Doberman markings."
I always explain sable, and the color dominance. Then, they want to know why they don't see sables more often, if it is supposed to be the dominant color! by MaggieMae on 19 February 2010 - 22:02
.
by yellowrose of Texas on 19 February 2010 - 22:02
Yes we do , Maggie...I have the obligation to not recommend Heidleberg to anyone as I know what a German shepherd dog is suppose to look , like, walk like and act like.
If this kennel is breeding crap and known crap and looks like crap and is crap then I have the obligation, thru my Vets own words, to tell people...Please research and do not buy from this kennel or person.
We have that knowledge and anyone who has been in this venue for years and prides themselves in temperament, structure, workability and HEALTH issues would never NEVER recommend some kennel who is well known for producing a german shepherd who does not have anything but hair, teeth, eyes , nose, ears and 4 legs that they walk on half of it instead of the foot.
Sorry , but I have to highly dissagree with you on that statement....Notice I did not say it had to have a schutzhund title...DDR and many countries abroad do not even use Schut..for their programs of breeding...there are many great breeders of working dogs bred with high german standards here in the USA...has nothing to do with show or work division..
You've got to produce a german shepherd that will even pass hip rating or even have a structure to grade.., first before you can present it for such.
Just because you stand in a garage doesn't make you a car., and just because you say you breed German shepherds doesn't make it one.
just my opinion'
YR
If this kennel is breeding crap and known crap and looks like crap and is crap then I have the obligation, thru my Vets own words, to tell people...Please research and do not buy from this kennel or person.
We have that knowledge and anyone who has been in this venue for years and prides themselves in temperament, structure, workability and HEALTH issues would never NEVER recommend some kennel who is well known for producing a german shepherd who does not have anything but hair, teeth, eyes , nose, ears and 4 legs that they walk on half of it instead of the foot.
Sorry , but I have to highly dissagree with you on that statement....Notice I did not say it had to have a schutzhund title...DDR and many countries abroad do not even use Schut..for their programs of breeding...there are many great breeders of working dogs bred with high german standards here in the USA...has nothing to do with show or work division..
You've got to produce a german shepherd that will even pass hip rating or even have a structure to grade.., first before you can present it for such.
Just because you stand in a garage doesn't make you a car., and just because you say you breed German shepherds doesn't make it one.
just my opinion'
YR
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