Genetics or training - Page 2

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GSD4dogs

by GSD4dogs on 23 April 2010 - 15:04

Genetics is very important but also the most illusive. Within a litter you still have a range of personalities and matching the puppy with the handler is important.  One of the biggest challenges is to match the training to the dog.  We also need to be able to read the dog and not try to make it into what it cannot be.

If you compare to humans, just think about those you know who were allowed to follow their own goals versus those who did what their parents thought a good fit or who took the path to least resistence when it came to a job to pay the bills.  How much of who people are as adults is genetics and how much is their environment?  The best environment for a human is one in which they are nurished and encouraged to make the best of their genetic abilities.  So it is with a dog as well.  The best environment is a handler who is sensitive to their dogs strengths and weaknesses and works to make the best of their genetics.  Trying to make any living thing what it cannot be makes for frustration and sometimes disaster.

In my opinion you have some dogs whose genetic temperment is so strong that they are can't be messed up by poor training.  I have had the joy of owning a dog like this and it is pure joy to work with them.  There are people like this as well, they go through hell and back as children and yet are well balanced, happy adults.  These are the humans that most challenge pschologists to define what makes them so resilient. 

Then we have dogs with good temperament that can be great dogs with the right handler or messed up dogs with the wrong handler.  Just think of the person who wants a laid back pet and buys a high drive shepherd.  Very bad combination and usually ends badly for the dog.  However, in the hands of a handler who wants those drives and nourishes them you have a great team.  Most dogs (and people for that matter) fall into this group.  Environment makes a big difference here.

Unfortunately we also have dogs with weak genetic temperament and a good handler can work with them but they will always be a challenge.  These situations are the saddest because often you have some of the most talented trainers frustrated because it takes extreme effort on the handlers part to get a minimal  result.

Add the effects of negative experiences during developmental periods and it become clear that the end result (the adult dog) is a combination of genetics, nurturing by the dam and environment.  One may play a bigger role in an individual dog than another but all three are important.  All three can make or break a good dog.

JMO.
 
 


Liesjers

by Liesjers on 23 April 2010 - 15:04

I see genetics as setting the outer limits of where on the spectrum of behavior/temperament/drive/etc a dog will fall, but training and socialization narrow down where the dog lands within the genetic boundaries.

by Goose on 23 April 2010 - 15:04

So wait....mutts don't have genetics?
Or is the argument about the more or less predictable nature of the purebred? 
Which I agree, starting of with a naturally sound dog is a lot easier.

by BoldogKennel on 23 April 2010 - 15:04

A report out of the UK recently was being ballyhooed by the HSUS because it stated that "mixbreeds make just as good police dogs as purebreds".  What was absolutely ridiculous about this arguement was that the "mixbreeds" were first generation crosses of traditional police dog breeds!!!!  Of course they were not Soft Coated Wheaton x St. Bernard crosses!!!!  Ridiculous.

Again, if training was 90% of a dog then pointers would win sheepherding trials and collies would win weight pulls.

OGBS

by OGBS on 23 April 2010 - 16:04

First of all, I don't see where anyone said training was 90%?
Second, yes, a collie could win a weight pulling contest against a Yorkshire terrrier or any other dog that is less strong than it in a pulling contest. That invalidates your statement because you are now trying to compare apples to oranges in order to prove your point.
I think if you read a little more carefully you will see that what most people here are saying is that there are many factors in determining what the end outcome of a dog is and that they include genetics, environment, experience and training. If it were only genetics then all of the breeders on here would have already produced a whole bunch of perfect dogs according to the claims on their web sites about the lines they are breeding!

darylehret

by darylehret on 23 April 2010 - 16:04

The "right handler for the right dog in the right job at the right time and place" is part of the Gene/Environment correlation above.  "Job Fitness" has to do with the genetics that the dog brings to the table for that specific training.  If it doesn't have the proper genetics for the job, it's not a "good dog", at least for that context.

OGBS

by OGBS on 23 April 2010 - 16:04

Daryl,
Well said!

Elkoorr

by Elkoorr on 23 April 2010 - 16:04

Training is what makes the dog work, genetics is what makes the dog tick.

AKGeorgias mom

by AKGeorgias mom on 23 April 2010 - 17:04

I think the issue with mixed breeds is the unpredictability - there is a greater variety of genetic material, and you can't be sure what you're going to get.  For example, we had a lab/akita mix that was like a big, goofy lab with a curly tail and heavier coat.  Had absolutely no personality traits of the sire (we were friends with the owners of the dogs that produced an accidental litter).  It's not a sure thing that you'll get a 50/50 mix of both parents. 

This only matters if you want the dog for a specific purpose. Even though that dog was half lab, I don't think there was any chance of training him to be a bird dog, or at least one that would perform reliably. Georgia does things by instinct that we have never trained her to do - this is genetic. She patrols the house at night, checking all the windows and peeking in on the kids before she lays down in our room. Our other GSD did this as well.

This is why good breeders spend so much time studying bloodlines - you want to try to match up two dogs that will bring the best traits of each dog to the next generation.  It's why stud dogs are sometimes recommended to improve conformation in working lines or drives in show lines (just two examples that I've read on pedigrees).  Read the thread about Buddy the hero dog- a GSD with absolutely no training brought the state trooper (who was lost) to his owner's house after a fire started.

I work with young children, and what I can tell you from the nature v. nurture debate in humans is that it's a combination of each.  External influences can change the brain development independently of genetic predispostions.  Genetic predispostions can make some kids more susceptible to certain environmental toxins or traumatic events.  There's a really complicated interplay between genetics and environment.

Opal
 

LAVK-9

by LAVK-9 on 23 April 2010 - 17:04

So wait....mutts don't have genetics?
Or is the argument about the more or less predictable nature of the purebred?
Which I agree, starting of with a naturally sound dog is a lot easier.



It was more so an argument that with knowing what is behind the dog in question...knowing the parents or genetics behind it you could have more knowledge of what that dog is going to be like. I was saying that I like and only want German Shepherds.He said that I could find and train a mutt to do the same things a German Shepherd did.He thought it was crazy that people are in to bloodlines and the genetics of a dog and that a mutt could be just as good. I was trying to explain that when people are in to competition or breeding they want to know...or should want to know...what it is they are breeding and want a pure bred GSD. Yes a good trainer could take a mutt  and make it do something but why make a dog do something that isn't naturaly in it's genetic make up?  Chows for instance.Geneticly I would say they are predisposed to be tough and aloof dogs.That is typicaly how they are...through their genetic disposition. Through training and the right environment one might be able to train it to be nice but that wasn't how the dog was naturaly.There might be some that break the mold and are born nice.If you are wanting nice Chows then I would say take another nice one and hope that they produce other nice Chows.SO you would have to look at the genetic that the nice Chow had and go from there. 
I agree that environment and training make an inpact on the behavior but then if training was the only thing that mattered and genetics didn't, then why would it matter what lines are bred together.Saying that genetics is only a small part of a dogs temperament,  dogs could be inbred to the hilt and it wouldn't make a difference.Any problem could be trained out of it.

Great posts above...now only if I coud beat them in to my friends head to get a clue!!!
Thanks to all that have posted such good info





 


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