Genetics or training - Page 3

Thanks LAVK-9 for bringing up this subject, one of the best threads since so long a time. I think the best of the best are posting here on this one, all the posters. A special lifting up of my hat to Opal .

Ibrahim

Il take a sound mutt over an unsound purebred anyday of the week!

You can find and train dogs to complete just about any task efficiently if the base instincts are there for the job at hand.
Who says a mutt cant preform. Sure they do. What do you think the german shepherd once was? or any other purebred dog? People still mix breed on purpose to pull desired triats for working ability in some form or not. And just because you throw two good dogs together doesnt mean you know what traits the pups will carry to a certainty. Genetics is simply a game of percentages and you try to stack the deck in your favor. So how many of you would know the genetics of a breeding simply by its pedigree? Without knwoing the dogs, seeing the dogs, being around through its developement, etc... you dont truely know a dog. And where is the documention of percentages on each genetic trait on every single progeny of the parents as well as of every dog in the prospects pedigree? you would need this to truely know the perentages of genetics you are looking at.


Yes i beleive you need a firm foundation in any working dog meaning the genetic predisposition for the work desired. However training is also crucial. A handler/trainer can bring the best out of a good dog or destroy one much easier.

This is where simply assessing a dog or puppy to be groomed for specific work and the multitude of taskings you desire.
 
 Just because a dog is a lab doesnt mean it will retrieve or a GSD it will track/bite/herd/etc....

I have a friend competes a dog in PSA3's(only 5 dogs alive certified at this level) and had a stick issue. never know it now. Trainers can cover up many flaws in dogs. We all know people can cover up flaws in sport and cure some for real world.
As well as we all see people whom cant train or fall prey to others misjudgements and dump dogs for no good reason to move on to a dog that they feel is more capable when in fact the issue lied with them the whole time. So i would say that the genetic basis is a must but is a very small percentage of the make up of the end result.

THE FOUNDATION MUST BE SOLID BEFORE BUILDING THE HOUSE! BUT YOU NEED A GOOD CARPENTER TO BUILD YOU A NICE HOUSE. AND AN EVER BETTER CARPENTER TO MAKE UP FOR FLAWS IN THE THE FOUNDATION!

It boils down to the fact that you have to have both, but genetics still win out.  You can train any dog up to its potential, and genetics predispose that potential.  So, without the genetics (for whatever you're after), you can only go so far with any given dog.  The best genetics, coupled with the best training will produce the best dog.  This is why we have breeds, for the predisposition through genetics for a specific task.

OGBS:  You need to go back and read the posts...  this is the quote I was refering to  "I posted this cause I am in an argument with my friend about genetics playing a big part of a dog and he is saying that genetics is only a very small part and training has 90% to do with how a dog is."  As you can see, there is a reference to 90%.  So, "lighten up, Frances!" 

As well, OGBS, your qoute: Second, yes, a collie could win a weight pulling contest against a Yorkshire terrrier or any other dog that is less strong than it in a pulling contest. That invalidates your statement because you are now trying to compare apples to oranges in order to prove your point. Is not relevant.   A collie is larger than the average (well bred) Amerian pit bull, but there is no way one can win a weight pull over the smaller dog. Nor can the much larger GSD. In fact, it is common for the much smaller pit bulls to beat much larger huskies BRED TO PULL due to their GENETIC characteristics which includes a far higher than normal desire to succeed.  Pit bulls were NOT BRED TO PULL.

There is no apples and oranges in this arguement because a much smaller pit bull can and does beat dogs BRED to pull. But it still comes down to genetics - not training techniques.  You can (and people do) take the SAME training techniques used with sled dogs and apply them to other breeds with a stronger genetic disposition to please their owner/succeed, and beat the sled dogs at their own game.  

There is not a trainer in the world who could raise/socialize/train a collie to beat a pit bull in a weight pull.  So, what does that say about "how they are raised" versus "what they are born with"? 

Obviously mismatched trainers can and do ruin good dogs, but it sure is harder to ruin a dog with good training genetics than one without. 

Gene/Environment interaction: right handler for the right dog.  But, you can't train the other one beyond its genetic potential (to hunt).

Boldog,
Once again, I will ask that you actually read what I said.
Where did I say anything about the size of a dog?
I did, in fact, say that a Collie could beat any dog that is less strong than it in a pulling contest.
This is much different than saying a larger dog.

You also make the claim that no trainer could train a Collie to be a better pulling dog than a Pit Bull solely because of genetics.
(Your quote, "There is not a trainer in the world who could raise/socialize/train a collie to beat a pit bull in a weight pull. So, what does that say about "how they are raised" versus "what they are born with"? ")

I, again, disagree. I do believe you may be correct that a Pit Bull has a better chance of being a better pulling dog than a Collie.
According to your thinking, though, a Collie could never beat a Pit Bull. Well, what about a Collie that is trained to be a pulling dog versus a Pit Bull that has never even had a harness attached to it prior to the contest. The Collie is going to win because it has learned how to perform this task and the Pit Bull has not.

I would also really like to know what you mean by Pit Bulls beating Huskies at what they were bred to do?
So far, I have yet to see a team of Pit Bulls win a race like the Iditarod.
A Pit Bull is a strong dog in a weight pulling contest which is a relatively short period of time, but, it has virtually no stamina when compared to a Huskie, or the Huskie/Hound mix that you now see in most high level sled dog races, and, Pit Bulls are not a dog that can withstand the cold temps like a Huskie. I'm trying to figure out what you mean by this statement?

Funny that your GSD hunts pheasents.I had a client that had a GSD that learned to hunt like the Springer they had.It wasn't  anything geneticly inhareted it was a learned behavior. The Springer though was born with that behavior....through genetics.