Genetics or training - Page 5

OK then.  So, in the case of the other dogs that seem to be unable to learn these hunting skills, could it be because they lack the prerequisite drives for the job, IOW, genetics?  It gets fuzzier when we start talking about instinctual behaviors versus learned behaviors, but a learned behavior (environmental context experience) is propelled by instincts and drives (genetic), so that instinct and learning facilitate one another simultaneously, in synergistic effect.  So also to mention, dogs also are very good at learning from one another, just as well or better than they learn from humans.  The observed mannerisms and techniques employed in the instance of the hunting GSD are perhaps not instinctual so much at all, as they are the instinct of mimicry that many domestic dogs portray, followed through by its drives.  Kind of like a strictly 'sport dog' on the field doing a protection routine.

OGBS, I think it is pretty obvious I will fail in any effort to make things clear to you.  It appears you have some sort of issue with me (though you don't know me) so let's just let it go. I've made it as clear as I can, and that's pretty clear, and seems to be clear enough for everyone else. We were discussing weight pull: can't make it any clearer than that.  We were discussing all things being equal: can't make it clearer than that. 

I think you are just trying to argue at this point.  We can take it to PM if you remain truly confused.

As to Swissies, they haven't made any waves in the world of weight pull. On rails, 4,000 is not much. My neighbor's dane pulled 5,000 on a cart, on dirt at an IWPA pull, and pit bulls pull 4,000 on carts with regularity.  A local guys 34 pound bitch  pulled 2480 on wheels, nearly 3,000, not bad for a 34 pound dog when most swissies weigh what?  100 pounds?  So, no, swissies and other breeds bred for pulling do not dominate the sport.  (I will say I have seen some VERY game St. Bernard pulls!)


Vixen, I REALLY like your tool box idea, though I see it as proving the genetics arguement.    Your quote about sisters and brothers being different is EXACTLY my point! They are different GENETICS raised in the SAME environment... hence the environment doesn't affect them nearly as much as the genetics they were born with.  My sister has low self esteem, mine is probably too high  (!) - same parents and environment...  a matter of genetics.

Thanks for a lively and interesting debate!    
 

I like Vixen's toolbox idea. I've raised many dogs of several breeds. Although I'm a better trainer than I was 20 years ago, you still do better with a good dog that has what it needs genetically for your particular use.

Great dogs are born, not made. Great dogs in the hands of a good trainer make for a competitive piece of teamwork - in any venue.

If there are any disagreements, so be it, but a good dog is also sure a hellova lot more fun to work with, and requires less effort to make it look effortless.

Besides, genetics carries down to the pups, an "overly trained" dog, does no breeding program any good.

 

 

Boldog,
I have no issue with you. You seem to be reasonably knowledgeable, but, maybe not good at putting your thoughts in print and you aren't very good at reading and deciphering what is written by others.
Even in my last post where I asked a question I wrote specifically that I was not talking about rail pulls with the Swissy and then you answer me with a statement about a Swissy doing a rail pull of 4000lbs not being a big deal.

Certainly I understand that you were talking about weight pulling, but, you seem to want to make the claim that this is what a Husky was bred to do. I disagree. It is a sled dog. They are different. A weight pull is, I believe, 16 feet. Sled dogs race hundreds or thousands of miles.
I am glad you mentioned the IWPA. I looked on their web site. The Huskies and Malamutes seem to do rather well in weight pull competitions in their environment. Snow pulls/natural surface.

Shady-I like your statement~Besides, genetics carries down to the pups, an "overly trained" dog, does no breeding program any good.

Which brings to my mind another component to the formula, "early neurological stimulation" (or, ENS).  For years I've debated many times in various forums against the supposed beneficial claims of ENS.  But, let's see what you decide.  This study was published last Nov/Dec in the Journal of Veterinary Behavior: Clinical Applications and Research.

Interesting: I have to admit that I saw NO differences in the litters I did ENS with. Thanks for posting.   


My neighbor's dane pulled 5,000 on a cart, on dirt at an IWPA pull, and pit bulls pull 4,000 on carts with regularity. A local guys 34 pound bitch pulled 2480 on wheels, nearly 3,000, not bad for a 34 pound dog when most swissies weigh what? 100 pounds? So, no, swissies and other breeds bred for pulling do not dominate the sport.

Sorry, I did mistype "rail" at the beginning of the paragraph. However, I made clear I was speaking about wheels in the rest of the statement.  My mistake! Sorry. So, removing that one mistake, what do you think about the Swissies now? You did not respond to my information concerning them.

The results for IWPA are not an accurate representation of overall weight pull. There has been a lot of political crap in weight pull the past 5 years, and IWPA is now where the vast majority of sled dog people compete. (Other than their own breed clubs).  Most of the other breed people use APA or UKC. As well, a lot of short-coat dog people don't do snow pulls as their dogs are uncomfortable. I know mine are, and that is why I don't do them.   As I stated above, sled dogs are a specialized breed adapted overall to their enviroment.  I'd also like to point out that weight pull is NOT a "pit bull sport" - it is a SLED DOG SPORT. Pure and simple. It was started in Alaska and was held in conjuction with races. It usually featured malamutes, which are FREIGHT dogs, not race dogs.  So, the sled dog people must feel is somehow relative to their breeds?  They were not thrilled when the bulldogs came in and took over (mostly because the bulldog owners were/are obnoxious. Can't blame them!).  But it was interesting that one breed (type) can outclass another breed/type at its own game.

 Great dogs are born, not made. Great dogs in the hands of a good trainer make for a competitive piece of teamwork - in any venue.  If there are any disagreements, so be it, but a good dog is also sure a hellova lot more fun to work with, and requires less effort to make it look effortless.

Besides, genetics carries down to the pups, an "overly trained" dog, does no breeding program any good.


Amen.   !!

That brought this video to mind. Even through all the early stimulation and later on training still didn't get rid of the instinct of the thrill of the hunt

Boldog,
Okay, I accept the mistake and the correction about the rails.
I didn't respond to your statement about Swissy's because I was asking you a question that I did not know the answer to.
You seemed like you might know. You sort of answered it before and now you clarified it, so, nothing further.
As for what I think about Swissy's now, and before, is that it will probably be another breed that was well suited to do work, but, will be ruined as pets with its re-emergence and as its popularity continues to grow.

As for certain dogs beating others at "their own game", in my opinion, this occurs because "games" are created to mimic what the dog's real work is and we try to kid ourselves in to thinking that our dogs don't know the difference.
In this day and age, humans have a lot of time on their hands. You can create almost any game that you think mimics your dog's real work and you can pretty much bet that someone will try to come along and prove to you that they have a dog, or breed of dog, that is better at that game. In the "old days" this did not occur as much because dogs that actually had a job were performing that job.
I guess the good thing is that either way people are out doing things with their dogs!