Has a Black Shepherd ever gone VA? - Page 1

I was wondering if there has ever been a pure black VA? I've been to 100's of websites and only seen black shepherds in the working lines. Has anyone ever managed to produce a sucessfull show black shepherd?

Doesn't look like it. But how many have tried?

It's going to take some super sperm to produce a Black VA dog.

VA Frei von der Gugge was the last solid black VA dog. He was twice VA in 1969 and 1970. This was at a time when there was no split between show and work in the breed. Frei can be seen in a lot of working pedigrees today.

Frei is also the only one I know of. Looking through the VA pictures, it stroke me again how we managed to breed bi-colours out of our show lines. They always complain about greys, but at least we have some of them left in the show lines. BUt show me one bi-colour in the last 10 years. :(

It would take a pretty long time to work the structure of the showline into a pure black dog. In order to get all black pups don't both parents have to be pure black? Could you even get a pure black pup if you tried crossing a pure black with a bi-colour or black and tan(red)?

look at V Xito v d Maineiche SchH3, KKL1 I have an older KKL1 bitch bred on Mutz P. - all "show lines" in background - PRE Martin era show lines. She produced black as her ancestry had Frei very heavy. I also just bred a HOT titled KKL1 bitch to Xito

"In order to get all black pups don't both parents have to be pure black? Could you even get a pure black pup if you tried crossing a pure black with a bi-colour or black and tan(red)?" No, both parents do not have to be solid black. The solid gene is recessive, and can therefore be carried by sable, bi-colour, or black and tan/red dogs. Since the gene seems to be non-existant in the current showlines, however, it would take at least 2 generations to produce some solids. Ie. A pure black dog bred to current showlines probably would not produce and solids - but all the pups would carry the solid gene, and in the next generation they could produce blacks.

...would not produce ANY solids, is what I meant...

My old mentor told me that if you had what you thought was a solid black, you needed to look between the toes, along the pasterns, along the hocks and determine if there were any tan hair. As a last check, lift the tail and check around the anus. If no tan found only then could you definitely say that the dog is truly black. In looking at Frei v.d. Gugge it looks as if there may be a little brown around the pasterns, the hocks, and lower theigh. However, it is a black and white picture and difficult to really tell the actual color. Years ago I had a Xang v. Haus Schutting (black and tan)X Jenny v. Bimohlen (who was predominately black)daughter. She was bred to Bodo v. Learberg and to Hanko vd Hetschemuhle. I got several pups predominately black but with some tan on the legs. I believe you could have gotten some solid with these bloodline combinations if done just right. ecs