Czech Bloodlines. - Page 14

OMG!We have a saying in Slovakia - If somebody wants to beat a dog,he will easily find the stick.
Duke- do you think that all the west dogs are shit?In Germany,Holland,Belgium just like in Czech republic,Slovakia you can find great dog and also crap ones.It doesn´t mean that if dog is from western lines it is just a prey monster with no defence drive,weak nerves or whatsoever just like it doesn´t mean that if a dog is from pure old Czech lines then it must be a super dog.There are great dogs,average dogs and crap ones everywhere.And I believe that Hans DOES sort out the sheep from goats.
To your 1st question - you can have most of the pups showing to be perspective for work,not only 1 or 2 just like you can also have a litter of pups where most of them are pet quality even from top parents.You can do repeat litters with totally different results - I know of a lot of cases where the first litter gave great pups who were great also when adults so the litter was repeated and the repeat breeding didn´t work out at all.
To your second question - only the time will show which of them will good quality stock and which won´t.Some dogs are super however do not reproduce themselves while other dogs which are just average give top progeny.If breeding was that easy then we all would have only great dogs.

Hans, you are a great source of information,I am learning a lot from all your postings.

Guys,I see that some of you are missing comprehension skills,you don´t read everything carefully just scan through the text and then you often misinterprete what the others write here.However,I am not suprised at that,I am a teacher and I see it quite often.

Duke 1956 said:
second , if you bred these one or two good pups , what are the chances they will produce quality stock and what will you breed them to , iff all else available is watered down with westbloodlines in them , and all the good ones are sold
 Duke you know  the answer to that. You linebreed them on the strongest dog in their pedigree. 
That is how all great lines are done . In other words you introduce new better quality from dog from China or Rwanda Burundi, while making sure that such dog and his  closest pedigree (3-4 generations usually) does not contradict in other traits what your dogs are and what you are building (total dog) and then you linebreed on the strongest dog in your dogs pedigree. Best is if they ( the dogs you linbreed on) are in 2nd and 3rd generation. Total knowledge of genetics of these dogs, experience/gut feeling, good breeding ethics, and understanding total picture of the dog is of papramount importance. ....That is if you want to do it right.  This is not the only schematic and you do not need to be rigid if you do it.  Some believe in type breeding and outcrossed lines. That is good way to go for beginners.  Also please keep in mind that even best effort may not and often does not work. Than you need to stop ad start all over again. There is no shame in that.
Only person who does nothing makes no mistakes. 

Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com  

cage , funny that you write this in your post

Guys,I see that some of you are missing comprehension skills,you don´t read everything carefully just scan through the text and then you often misinterprete what the others write here.However,I am not suprised at that,I am a teacher and I see it quite often.


obviously your not that good at it eighter , because I dont write west dogs are shit , to use your words , I write that most  breed more sport oriented dogs , and that they are good at it , and  it happens to be the case that that is not what Im looking for in a GSD first and foremost

I know there are great dogs in westlines to fit my likings, but to give you one example  , there are several great dogs from one certain bloodline here , great drives and reactionspeed , good grips and agression , but what I dont like is the fact they also turn on the owners , and quite a few have one testical , forget the little other things , but for me this is not what Im looking for ,I dont like dogs who fight the owner all the time

about breeding , your right that repeat litters most of the times dont give similar results as the previous combination , but that is easy to explain , most combinations are total outcrosscombinations , they will not even give you a lot of similarities in the litter itself , let alone that will happen in another combination of the same parents

but cage , your from slovakia , so you ,off all people should know that , till the eighties , german shepherds in czechoslovakia where bred and selected for other goals than in the western part of europe , resulting in a different type of dog on both sides of the wall , not worse , not better , but different

furthermore , in the westbreeding you find several times in late history , great dogs that produce some real good dogs , harder with more sharpness , and if you look at their pedigrees there was eastern blood brought in

PS: few posts ago I have garbled my thoughts. (Again:)) Here is the correct one:

The point is that I am not breeding just for hips. As a matter of fact I am dead set against breeding JUST for hips. I promote breeding for total dog. That includes hips besides many other qualities.
 

BUYER VS BREEDER.

Also I would like to say that buyers are at least as important as the breeders in promoting quality of GSD as a whole. 
Buyer needs to educate him/her self about the breed and then demand total dog from the breeder. 
The buyer same as the breeder needs to subscribe to a culture of total GSD!
If you ask for "OLD CZECH TYPE  STYLE DOG" often enough that you will get it. 
Supply  vs demand.  In  Europe or at least in Czech people selling dogs for profit are frowned on by old timers. The reason is because many of new breeders are whores and  abandoned their ethics in order to satisfy a client. However this can be turned around if the client asks for proper type of GSD. 
Also the breeder needs to educate the clients on what the GSD is all about! I know I do and often I loose the sale. Well so be it. At least I can look in the mirror in the morning and like the guy I see there. 
So please educate your self and others. You may not be popular if you do but people will respect you.
Prager Hans
 http://www.AlpineK9.com
 !

hans , can you show me some examples in alpine breeding program how you did that

hans I know how inbreeding works , I practiced it already for many generations in my breedingprogram of bouvier des flandres , with great succes if I may say myself , because I produced topquality dogs with great similarity in the litters ,also great health,great temperaments
my breedingprogram is for everyone to see on internet ,and dogs can be found in breedingprograms worldwide
my dogs won the worldchampionship twice , and close to twohundred titles worldwide

here is one example of my linebred breedingprogram and notice most dogs in the first generations are all my breeding
mother was an outcross ,after that bred back into my lines

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/bouvier_des_flandres/pedigree/862564.html

this is how linebreeding works and how you create more similarity in your litters , and greater predictability in your offspring

Yes Duke You are right. But what I am saying in earlier posts is this:
1. that is not the end of the dog as you and I like it . The genes are there. You can pull them out in 3 generations. +-
2. there are still breeders who do it and they need to be promoted.
3. People like you with proper ethics need to be leaders and educate and breed and demand from others such dogs. That will force the less ethical breeders do the right thing.
4. The buyers need to educate them selves and allow other to educate them.
5. Do not bicker an d whine  here but teach, ask and learn here. And then repeat over and over again. This and other forums are able to save great dogs. There thousands of people reeding these posts. There had been  5709(!!!!!) visits on this thread at this moment from all over the world!!!!
There are great many people in new markets trying to get great dogs. India, Indonesia, China, Taiwan, Africa, Jordan, Russia, Israel, Argentina, Brazil, Island, ..... 
This is not just promotion of the breed, but also promotion of friendship amongst people. So be careful with your words. Be nice!
Anyway as I like to say please don't let me start.  :)
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

Duke I have answered this question about my breedings  earlier.
Hans

But since you asked there is one of my more recent breedings. As you can see I selected dog line bred on Koran z Ps  and line bred it  with Erin mainly because of Cir z Vrtovske doliny. Line breeding is far back so i have now option to outcross or line breed again.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=631939&modir=562035
Blitzy z Alpine.

There is another one:
again line breeding 5 -5 (almost outcross on Cir z Vrtovske doliny)
 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=511811&modir=562035
Cibule z Alpine
(Some posts ago I mixed her with Blitzy)

Prager Hans.
Http://www.alpinek9.com

Hans,

 In your opinion who are the top 2 or 3 stud dogs available in North America to carry on the genetics of the Old type Czech dogs? Also, do you have an opinion on Hoky Va-Pe?


Thanks

Adam

prager , about your breedings versus your comments
dont take this wrong , its not meant like that  , but in your writing posts I see ,in many things , you know what you talk about and how to do it , but I cant find any examples to reflect that philosophy , which I regret

furthermore you write , be nice(I love roadhouse but thats another story) ,I dont see where I wasnot nice ,I even tell people on this board if they look for something good to contact jiri (you)

Im trying to keep and breed these type of dogs with these qualities , and I just hope there will be enough stock available in the future to maintain the level I  want

hans , tell me what you think of this bitch pedigreewise , she will be one of my foundationbitches for years to come
all littermates  hips elbows and back , clear/free , all littermates in IPO/KNPV

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/636382.html