Old VA's vs New VA's - Page 2

Super-Dave, I'm pretty sure this Cash was not stacked, he is merely about to lie down for a rest. To Sumo: The problem lies in your question already. One has admitted to breed two different kind of dogs, fully contrary to the philosophy of Max von Stephanitz. The market will produce what people want, and in this case, it is VA-dogs, nice looking specimen, showdogs. This board for instance (as an image of the market) is full of Larus, Yasko, Ursus, Bax, Jeck, Zamb, etc. You all know perfectly who they are. I don't even have to add their names!! Look at the following list of dogs: Eros, Tom, Zender, Amigo, Ellex, Quincy, Carlo, Balko, Kalle, Hirro, Falco, Veit, Ero, Hunter. Can you fill out their full names? You might be thinking: "Who the he** are they?" They are very much what Rittmeister Max had in mind, when he created the "Standard" and was focusing on "Gebrauchseigenschaften". I think it is fully wrong to have two different main SV-events! There should only be one! We want to go for the "Universal Dog", so any MAIN SV (WUSV) -event should combine both "disciplines" - show and work. That's the spirit! The market obviously doesn't want a dog that looks like Zender. But have you seen his attack? (I offered a link a while ago.) A small comparison: The first 20 males of the BSZ 2005 have sired until 3rd quarter '05: 4.010 pups - some of the competitors even without any progeny YET whatsoever! (the chance of these males to be with the topmales and reproduce more will certainly be there again next year) The first 20 males of the BSP 2005 have sired (with just withdrawing Olex de Valsory as an exeption!): 180 pups. (the chance of these males to be TOP AGAIN next year is rather small, and so is their chance to reproduce massively) Now in what direction do you think the GSD-breed will develop (based on the amount of offspring)? If the market wants Larus, they will get Larus. (And Ronny van den Berghe will silently and modestly lead Eros von der Mohnwiese to a third Worldchampionshipstitle in a row.) Just for your info: we were talking about 4 Worldchampions: Eros von der Mohnwiese and Tom van 't Leefdaalhof, Zender vom Lusondai and Amigo vom Glockenbuhl, and 10 top German BSP 2005 competitors: Ellex vom Salztalblick, Quincy vom Waldwinkel, Carlo von der Bösen Bruderschaft, Balko vom Mörfelder Land, Kalle vom Welzbachtal, Hirro vom Weinbergblick, Falco vom Güldenen Winkel, Veit vom Fuchsgraben, Ero von Armannsberg, Hunter vom Moosheider Teich.

Hello Preston, from your comments it appears that older time dogs were far more healthy and better anatomy but then why was the need to change the anatomy or type as we layman call it so drastically. Is it because of only the influence of the top breeders like Martin Brothers?( Because they are said to be responsible for modern day GSD) Hello Oskar,Thanks for your comments. You gave example of BMW . But in that case we know definately chaning the shape of BMW enhanced the performance of the car. So it was not only cosmetic. So please elaborate on that point. Changing the type has improved the movement or is it just a cosmetic change? Both of you (Preston,Oskar1)Have you seen older dogs like Uran,Quando,Dingo,Fanto,Gundo,etc. in flesh and blood or have you seen their videos? How would you compare it to ( mainly movement) present day dogs like,Ursus,Rikkor,Bax,Larus,Hill Etc. last question please answer in Yes or No or similar if you can The movement of present day dogs is better than Older day dogs? (Regards to the dog I mentioned Not the dogs in 60's and 70's.) I am emphasising on movement so much because GSD is all about effortless movement needed for herding the original purpose it is meant for. Which is the oldest kennel still active any guesses?

I would also like to add Is the stacking style different from todays? Is it the cause of difference we see in photos.

I love this thread. I could pick up on various statements made above but suffice to say that I think that the breed is being ruined by selection on visual grounds only. Actually I have decided to pick up on a couple of things. Sumo - Hats off to the breeders...you are joking of course. Oska - Food 30 yrs ago was often better (in my opinion) and the idea that people took their dog round the back for "walking funny or had pain" is a joke. Thank goodness some people out there will not breed from a "showline dog", the quicker the breed splits into two sections the better.

Wow Gooner, Nobody blames you for loving workingdogs, so please tell, why are you blaming people loving showlines and why do you keep on picking on the showlines? You don¿t like showlines? Fine, keep to workingdogs but isn¿t all about loving dogs? By the way, I¿ve seen old german pedigrees where it¿s written: puppies killed. And yes, today it¿s still the same. OK, one might not take the dogs around house and shoot them, but if the pre-x-ray with 6 month turns out to be really bad, this dog won¿t leave the vet alive.

Howdy Gooner, for what ever it is worth, whether you believe it or not, it was done the way i said. My Grandfather used to do that, he had the opinion no need to bring money to a vet, when he can do it by himself ! Not that he did in puplic, the dog was just gone, if u would have asked him he would have told u that the dog ran off. Many breeders did it. If a bitch had to much puppys, do u thín k 30-40 years back someone bothered to look for an Amme ? These Pups were put to sleep in a second, without any thought. It just was a different time. For the food quality, oh well, everyone if entitlet to their own opinion. i do agree with Jantie, if the market asks for dogs that look like Ursus, the markett will provide just that. Now if someone trys to do just that plus has an eye on standart of the breed & trys to improve that, thats what breeding is meant to be. Just my two cents. Ulli

I'm certainly a lover of working dogs as well as a lover of mongrel dogs that people have as pets. Given that the breed is a working breed it should be judged on working ability rather than looks. I fear that the way things are going we will end up with dogs that have such poor structures they will not be able to jump over a fence. There have been plenty of breeds ruined (lost their working ability) by show people and I see no reason to suppose that GSD's will not recieve the same treatment. What worries me is the discussions on this board seem to centre on the looks and conformation of the dog rather than it's working ability. That can only lead to bad things. Maybe a cure would be to only breed from dogs with a SchH3 title.

Ulli you said "Now if someone trys to do just that plus has an eye on standart of the breed & trys to improve that, thats what breeding is meant to be. I would say that the purpose of breeding a working dog is to produce another working dog. If the look of the parents is given too much significance you will erode the working abilities of the progeny. These dogs have been produced by people through the ages who's primary focus was on the working abilty, they didn't just happen. How many terriers at a breed show will face a fox or how may sheepdogs will face a ram or a ewe with a lamb. To the hunter or farmer such dogs are useless and would never be bred from. Each to his own of course but I for one think that dog shows do nothing for a working breed.

Just one question. How many male VA's have SCHh3 titles? Just check that and then you could tell if they cannot work. Regards

Gooner, i dont really get how we all have the topic workingdog now. Nevrless i stick with what i allready said earlier. The fact that one breeds " workingline, grey dogs" might also be what ones favor is.It¿s true you will have the best results if you have a large breedingstock you can choose from. And yes, i agree these breeders brought together what they thought would be the best for their purpose. And still they HOPED to get what they were looking for ! Do you really believe that ALL so called " Workingline dogs " are actually used to work with (not to say that all of them are able to work ?) ? Get a glue, the breeders of "workingdogs", do exact the same thing as "Showline" breeders ! And they all HOPE for the best we want to achieve ! You need to talk to peopel like Mr. Füller ( vom Kirschental ), tell him that black - yello "showline " are not capable of working or herding ! All his dogs get HGH titled and still they place good ! I dont give a darn, if you see in a poodle-doodel that he has what a drug dog needs to have and you train him he might just become best drug dog ever !! But if one is just not willing to see what is there, hey, tahts the end of the story.... Ulli