Indi's post name edited - Page 1

Indi D.H. Indi (10 replies) 22 Apríl 2006 - 18:04 Reply Janite's previous post has been deleted regarding his dogs recent gallery entry. Interesting x-ray you have posted in your dogs gallery, Jantie. Unfortunately it is too small an area to see all that needs to be seen. Would be better if the x-ray would show the whole pelvis bone all the way down to the knee. From what I can see so far, it is a poorly positioned x-ray. The whole left side of the dog (right side of the x-ray) looks out of whack, giving a different viewing angle of that particular part of the body, which can distort the result. When you look at the empty spaces between the spine and different areas of the pelvic bone and hip joint, they are not equal, but they should be as close to being equal as possible. The x-ray should also be straight, which it is not. The whole area above the socket is either deformed, or that could be due to the angle of the x-ray. What happened to the dogs left tip of the pelvis (on right hand side in the pic)? There is a piece missing. Has this dog been in an accident? That is what I would question. And I would agree with the breeder, this dog should be x-rayed again, based on that positioning. I recommend you take Indi to the University of Giessen and have them re-x-ray your dog and give you an evaluation right there on the spot, which will then also be that dogs proper and irrefutable a-stamp. Questions: Why does he not have an a-stamp? Considering how you feel about the whole thing one would assume that you would want this to show in the HD genetics database... Why are you devastated? Indi seems to be doing fine and neither a poor HD x-ray nor a poor hip is a death sentence on a dog, unless you consider it useless if it cannot be shown or competed with. He seems to be happy in your family and a dog that managed ring training, and an SG5 rating at a Sieger Show at 13 months certainly is not suddenly sick or lame just because he did not x-ray ideal at 14 months. If he could stand up to the rigors of a Siegershow, logic dictates that his hip status cannot be so severe that he can no longer have a good quality of life. The x-ray is also not so severe that it would indicate great suffering, lameness, a poor quality of life. With a bad HD result he may "merely" be reduced to being a family pet, but can serve that function well for many years to come. But if another "proper" x-ray would indeed come back with any type of a passing grade a-stamp, then the breeder has no further obligations towards you. Why are you so unwilling to re-xray? From where you are at right now, I suggest you get this over and done with, because without that a-stamp you really have little to go by. IMO the breeder is entitled to have you redo x-rays if they look like that. You mentioned courts... a judge will probably agree and order x-rays done at a proper facility like the Uni of Giessen. So just do it, let us know what those results are and then what the breeder has to say. Right now I would consider this an open and unresolved matter. But nothing finite yet. Incidentally, Asko vom Sprötauer Wald, a dog that has competed at Regional and National level in FH (tracking) for several years and was FH World Tracking Champion in 2003! did all of that with HDa4 hips. So much for not being able to compete because of bad hips... Melanie

vomlandholz Indi (0 replies) 23 Apríl 2006 - 01:04 Reply Thanks for the email of the xrays. Xaver's xray is much better position wise. You can easily tell the length of the femoral head as well as the rounding and how much of the socket covers the joint. As for Indi, the xray is very poor positioning. I wouldn't even submit this since it distorts so much, makes the right side look almost arthritic since bone is so dense. Appears that when positioned, the right side was higher than the left side. As for the appearance of missing pelvic bone, you'll get that with wrong positioning. I would not call this dog dysplastic until proper xrays were taken from an experienced vet who knows how to do them. I hope that the right hip (dog's left side) is only looking bigger since it is closest (higher) than the left. JMO Angela D.H. Indi 23 Apríl 2006 - 01:04 Reply Feel free to disagree Melanie :o). No harm in that. But I also stand by my opinion that in order to get a clear picture, you need a clear picture. What I really applaud is hearing about dogs with poor HD results having a productive life. I would like to see more comments about that here. Usually HD comments lead to the impression that it is a dead end for the dog, literally. Nice to see it does not have to be. Blitzen Indi (0 replies) 23 Apríl 2006 - 05:04 Reply I agree with Melanie, this dog is definitely dysplastic; repositioning will not make any difference. The dog has DJD.

Jantie Indi (0 replies) 23 Apríl 2006 - 10:04 Reply Very busy today, just time for saying "thank you" to you all who care to discuss this matter. I appreciate your comments very much, especially DH's elaborate comments (which we will be continued privately on monday). I wish to add to this board that the official result: "HD-4" was given by the Belgian HD-ED-commission: "NCSA" who works in Gent, Merelbeke, for the FCI, chief is Dr. Frank Coopman. I am sure they know what they are doing. The digital picture I put on this board is of course not the ideal one, but its the only one I got (by e-mail). Of course, the Vets did not give their diagnose based on this particular pix, they took many, always adjusting the position a little bit, until the dog was in perfect position. I will try to put the whole pix on the gallery, as what you have seen sofar, was a detail. Please see: Gallery Indiana (Picture all the way down to the knee.) Indi was now x-rayed on different occassions three times, and the diagnosis was internationally consulted! (Dr. Telhelm -SV-Obergutachter and Prof. Flückiger from the Vetsuisse Fakultät, Tierspital Zürich, both authorities on this matter, were asked for their opinions. I will in due course offer the "perfect pictures" for you to share with me. Condition of Indy has worsened a lot, the other pix are treacherous of his real condition. As far as I can tell, he is today in a great deal of pain. I can offer another comment on his hips (based on this very same pix from another authority: Dr. Gutbrod Sehr geehrter Herr xxx, das mir vorgelegte Röntgenbild zeigt einen Hund, dessen Hüften nach allen bestehenden Regeln mit einseitiger schwerer Hüftgelenksdysplasie (HD) zu beurteilen sind. Ein Gelenk weist starke Umbauprozesse an der Pfanne und am Oberschenkelhals auf, die diese Bewertung gerechtfertigen. Einseitige Hüftgelenksdysplasie habe ich des öfteren gesehen. Manchmal sind bestimmte Zuchtlinien davon betroffen. Nun werden Sie sicher fragen, könnten diese Veränderungen auch durch einen Unfall bewirkt worden sein. Sicherlich ist das möglich, doch hätte dieses "Ereigniss" bewirkt, dass selbst ein laienhafter Besitzer einen Tierarzt aufgesucht hätte, der dieses Ereigniss durch ein Röntgenbild oder ähnliches dokumentiert hätte. Da Sie so etwas nicht erwähnt haben, ist davon auszugehen, dass sich diese Veränderungen auf Grund einer Hüftgelenksdysplasie entwickelt haben. Weitere Fragen kann ich Ihnen unter der e-mail Adresse dr.gutbrod@tierklinik-gutbrod.de beantworten. Mit freundlichen Grüßen

vomlandholz Indi (0 replies) 22 Apríl 2006 - 22:04 Reply I can see it just fine. GSDfan Indi (0 replies) 22 Apríl 2006 - 23:04 Reply Yes it is poorly positioned but it is clearly dysplastic, evident by the Degenerative Joint Disease (arthritis) on the right side. I feel for you Jantie, my females' xray looked the same, although she rated Moderate HD by OFA on one side, the other looked fine. I had a second opinion done and the University of Penn (to get an xray with better positioning) and they said no organization would certify hips if there is DJD, with DJD evident the positioning is rather irrelivant except for evaluating how severe it is. So I never had them officially evaluated again. She is now almost 4 years old and since I haven't shown her the xray she has no idea theres' a problem. She's gotten 3 AKC OB titles, a Dock Dogs title and should have her BH shortly. She shows no sign of discomfort and is a bat out of hell anywhere there's a toy thrown. I keep her in excellent physical condition, she's lean and swims regularly to keep the rear muscles in good shape. Point being, just love him and learn from him. I have gained a wealth of knowledge on HD from this experience and chalk it up as a life lesson. In the future when I start over with a new female I will likely purchase an adult (already hip cert.) just not to have this horrible experience repeat itself twice in a row. However when I do get a pup down the road I will keep in mind HD is always a possibility no matter how great the quality or how much you spend. Good luck, Melanie GSDfan Indi (0 replies) 23 Apríl 2006 - 00:04 Reply I would also like to mention, someone I see frequenly at shows has a GSD with Moderate HD and she's 8 years old (looks and acts like she's 3) She is close to finishing her UDX and has actively competed in flyball for years finishing more than a couple titles I'm sure. Take care, Melanie GSDfan Indi(0 replies) 23 Apríl 2006 - 00:04 Reply D.H. -sorry to disagree with you on this one, I highly respect the knowledge and advice you contribute to this board. Regards, Dr. Gutbrod

Blitzen Indi (0 replies) 23 Apríl 2006 - 13:04 Reply Sorry, Jantie, been there done that myself and it is never pleasant. Give your dog a chance to recover from this painful period, many often do. I am reminded of a puppy of mine, at 8 months he was so lame he coud barely walk and his xrays were worse than you boy's. Mine was bilaterally severe, more DJD than you dog. Anyway, I rested him, (absolutely no running or playing, limit climbing stairs, etc), gave him Cosequin, esther C, salmon oil capsules, kept his weight down and in 3, 4 months it was hard to tell anything was wrong with him. His first exercise progam consisted of slow walks for short distances. I was able to place him in a lovely home where he went on to lead a wonderful life as a companion to a blind child. He died of natural causes at over 12 years. He did have one problem however - he jumped 6 foot fences so needed a special fence. Your dog is a beautiful dog and I think if you give him the chance he will do fine as he matures. BTW the dog I speak of above was out of 3 generations of OFA normals. It just happens sometimes. Blitzen Indi (0 replies) 23 Apríl 2006 - 14:04 Reply Jantie, after looking at the most recent xray you posted to this board, I have to join with DH and ask if this dog could have suffered an injury to his bad hip?

and please Jantie post the great pics of Indi without the Xrays. Those you can submit to individual board members for their review upon their request or post them on a website of your own.

Saoa, your post came on only after I posted mine. Now why would I need to post the pix of Indiana vom Wildsteiger Land again? So you can delete them again, at your convenience? And why can I NOT post x-rays (OF MY OWN DOG!) in my Gallery and inform people of HD? I daresay you're crossing the limit. And intentionally blocking a good thread, which now nobody can understand.

Jantie, this is about who, not what. You may as well give up, the photos of those xrays will never stay on this board. Someone is obviously protecting your breeder and/or the dogs in the pedigree. Sorry, you just don't have the right contacts to matter. You're just another cash cow like most of us.

IF this is indeed the case, and thanks for enlightening me Blitzen, saoa may stop trying to block me. The pictures will soon be sent around the world and published on websites and in books. Anyone interested can ask me to send them by e-mail already. Gee, I never thought saoa would do this to me. What's wrong with her anyway? This is really upsetting me. We are dealing with the number one problem with GSDs and she will prevent people from talking about it? My statistics prove that only 44 % of all x-rayed GSD have hip-problems ans saoa will wipe it from the board? Talking about denial!!

Sorry, should be: only 44% of all x-rayed GSDs have perfect hips and saoa will wipe this from the board? I'm upset, sorry!