How would you improve the GSD of today? - Page 6

I agree with the courage Rating - but even that program was faulty because it was the opinion of one judge and then we're getting into the whole politics thing again... There is no such thing as "Too much work" when it comes to this topic.... Anyone who thinks it's too much work, should really give breeding GSD's a second thought- and then get the hell out if they don't want to put forth the necessary and required effort!! If Helpers/Decoys were doing their job correctly in trials and Körungs it doesn't matter what kind of stick they carry... That is a VERY Old School way of thinking - that reed sticks put more pressure on the dog than a padded stick!!! I stick to my proposed solution as stated above. David Kiewel

Just to deviate a bit. A Sch 3 on a dog does not make him a working dog. A sport dog yes, but bear with me a second. I have a certified disaster dog (FEMA) who actually works hurricanes, collapsed structures etc. He is well bred, OFA, CGC and TDI. His temperment is outstanding. No takers on breeding to him. Not to make light of Schutzhund as I have competed and had fun but he is not in a ring for x amount of time. He is out there working hour upon hour. To me this is what a true working dog is..the dog tending sheep, assisting the bling, and locating victims of horrific events both natural and man made. This is the true deffinition of a what I believe a german shepherd is and a working dog to boot.

k9sar said: "A Sch 3 on a dog does not make him a working dog." .... I agree with that point... the rest, that is the path you have chosen with your dog - and it's a great path! You're out there making a difference and helping people with your dog. He has achieved a lot, and I'm sure he is a great dog for you... However, that alone does not mean he should be bred - and that's why I had outlined detailed changes to breeding requirements which are currently in place within the WUSV that would have a dramatic and positive impact on the GSD breed in general. Are these things going to change what "BACKYARD" breeders do in countries like the USA? Hell NO! But, within countries that are required to follow Breeding Standards within the WUSV this will have a major global impact on the breed standard and the direction of the quality and type of the GSD - I think it is the best way to make one step in the right direction. David Kiewel

Nice discussion folks. You can see the passion and the thought that you all have put into your idea of what a GSD is. I happen to think the story of the European GSD is pretty good, work or show, generally the highest quality dogs you will find on the globe for any breed. A dog must be able to work, that does not necessarily mean it has to rip out someone’s throat but be able to work. Different dogs have different strengths and different handlers have different strengths. Here is a summary of what I read, there were good conceptional statements that were difficult to bullet: - Minimum requirements Sch3 sire Sch2 bitch - Increase linebreeding by at least one generation - Track disease genetically - Higher scores for breeding - Reform title system - Uniform across Country requirements eg. hips, DNA - Relook at body structure - re-emphasize workability - Artificial insemination as tool for specific breeding - Manage “politics” in breeding - Improve Körung - Restrict breeding in accordance to quality of production

My take on improvement starts in a drastic way... Genetic diversity is key to improving the GSD, much of it has been lost. I would begin where the breed started and that is with a hefty infusion of wild canine genetics. Ask for the top third of European breeders to bring into their flock very specific breedings with hybrids or full blood wolves. Pretty radical?? Genetically wolves do not have the health problems that we have created in our dogs. They are smarter, they have a higher prey drive, they have courage, they track, hunt and kill protect. The Capt. knew this and that is why you find wild canine blood in the beginning. There are obvious problems and undesirable traits when dealing with hybrids but the best of the breeders will know what to do and know what is desirable and what is not. It would have to be carefully managed and second and third generations created with care. Within 4 generations you may not see much of the wild canine in the face of your GSD but you will see it in their hips. From there we must embrace diversity. Proof of work abilities, not just SCH but there are plenty of other demonstrations and SCH titles are not universal. Breeding a dog because it bites really hard does not do the GSD breed good as a whole because there is a tendency towards the extreme... the aggressive dog that loves to bite, that maybe on the edge of instability. Eliminate the color and coat biases, they are bullshit. These biases reduce diversity. Create an organization whose sole purpose is improving the breed and has nothing to do with show/trials/breeding politics and money. Certification from this organization would be a stamp of honor.

Suggestions for North Americans with NA based bloodlines: First, take a trip to a quality kennel breeding W. Germ. showline or cross-over dogs in USA, North America, UK or Europe and then preferably start over. Abandon the American bloodlines and import quality West German showline dogs or working line/showline ("cross-over")dogs from West Germany or Europe. Then acquire good females (non-roach backed with KK1 "a normal" hips and elbows)from W. Germany breeding and selectively breed them to quality w. German import studs. Select short backed, short loined dogs with rich pigment and proper overall proportions and with no roach, and with correct temperament, with short rear hocks, good feet, adequate angulations at both ends without sickle hocks in rear, good coming & going, no dead tail, no steep short croups and no pushed forward fronts, with no rolling up in the rump on loose lead (just for starters). Start using slow motion analysis at frmes of 1000 per second which will easily display the dog's actual quality of movement when on looose lead. Many who look great from the side are actually quite faulty when one does this. Suggestions for working line breeders in W. Germany: (Read the FCI standard and learn what correct confirmation is, that is, correct proportions). Breed your shortest bitches to the best pigmented, best proportioned "cross-over" dogs who are proven winners in show and working/schutzhund, or to only the strongest temeramented showline studs. Keep and use only the shortest dogs with rich pigment and those with normal H & E and no TLI evidence of pancreatic deficiency. Avoid using "nerve ending" crazy dogs who do not meet the FCI standard. Breed for mental soundness, stability and high intelligence with moderate defensive natures and balanced with moderately high to high prey drives. Suggestions for W. German showline kennels: Institute a "no roach" policy like a few of the best kennels have (the highly esteemed Dr. Rummel instituted a "no roach" policy in the SV many years ago during his presidency. Learn what a normal back is compared to a roach back (carp back). Institute screening of all dogs for pancreatic deficiency along with bleeding disorders, thyroid function and dysplasia of the H & E. Breed to the best "cross-over" dogs to emphasize quality working temperament or use only the best temperamented showline dogs (and there are some very good & correct ones). Select for short hocks and properly angled croups. Work the dogs more often on loose lead to prevent conditioning the wrong movement patterns which do not enhance side gait potential. These are my strictly my own views and opinions. Whether they are correct or not that's what I suggest.

Amazing range of very good suggestions have emnated from a relatively simple question. I have to thank maxislooking for starting it. I especially liked some of the posts, like the one from KWD even though some of his suggestions diverged from my views. Goes to show that serous, sane and sensible discussion can indeed be had on this board without having it deteriorate into the juvenility that I have come across in the past. I sincerely hope we can have more of the same.

Preston I wonder what a cross-over dog is? In my opinion a dog can perform or it can't, if it passes a working title it is a working dog. At least that is what I'd like to see. As I have stated earlier I would make high SchH titles mandatory before you can breed the dog. Hopefully people will be so happy to have a good sport dog they won't worry too much about it's gait or colour. Again in my humble opinion there is only one (main) criteria for the breed and that is it's working abilty. If this is kept foremost in peoples minds then the rest will follow. I would love to see only one seiger per year from Germany, the winner of the BSP.

Since when were wolves heavily part of German Shepherds? Isn't that a myth often propagated by people who hate GS?

I would not assume that all Euro GS are superior to all NA GS. In fact, I would not abandon them altogether. There are some, especially all-breed, GS who are closer to the real GS - and they don't have the all-prevalent roach-back of the popular "show" Euro GS. I also would not simply dismiss "backyard" dogs - here in America I think some of the best GS are the "forgotten" unfashionable dogs who have fallen through the cracks even of simple registry in AKC. I had 1 as a child. She was better than your average GS; pigmentation could've been better, but otherwise good and robust. My best dog was a "cross" between German and American, both parents plenty of showing/"working" - SchHIII dam. (In fact, the "American" side included some lesser German and VERY low-brow American forgotten dogs as I'm finding out digging backwards in pedigree - yet they turned out 1 of the most wonderful all-breed GS ever who also led to my dog.) Healthy, joyous, spirited, bold, dominant but NEVER aggressive, confident, secure, smart as a whip, stubborn too. She was so good I've still never ~heard of~ a single dog I'd rather have overall. Lucky? Maybe. But our 3-4 pure Euro dogs have had all kinds of issues, from health to some temperament/personality (goofy Lab-like, included). I wouldn't simply try to reconstruct with the current warped dogs when perfectly good dogs may exist aplenty "underground" to mine.