Breeder won't lift Limited registration - Page 6

I,m touched.

 I can see where someone w/a big enough breeding program may feel they need to sell on limited. I understand Kelly's point about people lying. Of course they do. And some of them don't really mean to; they start w/the best of intentions, then find out that they really really want to breed that dog. 

I guess my stand is so staunch because of the people I sell to. Most people wouldn't want to deal with me- if you're the type who wants to buy the dog and then never talk to me again, not happening. I want to know what that dog is like, often, as it's growing up. I breed for a purpose, I breed for the kind of dogs I want, and I have no choice but to sell the rest. That's not the dog's fault and so they deserve the absolute best as they would receive had I kept them. I need to know as much as I can for future breeding decisions. I want to know what's great about it, what's just ok, and HELL YES, I want to know if there's ANYTHING "wrong" with it. How do I do this w/out keeping close tabs on them? 

So, I establish quite a rapport w/people before I sell them a dog. I "know" 90% of them from a forum, through friends, etc. before we even talk about a particular pup/litter. Even if they got pissed at me and didn't want to talk to me, I still would probably know what that dog is like or what that dog is doing through other people or forums, worst case. The WL world is growing fast, but among the kind of people who would even want one of my mediocre maniac mutts, it's pretty small, in a good way. When people work their dogs a lot, you hear about it. Just this week I heard great compliments about one of my pups and buyers from people who had no idea I knew him, let alone bred the dog. Small world. 

I do think that a SL breeder or even a WL breeder who breeds often who often places them in pet homes has a MUCH harder time being able to track pups than I do. For someone like that, I understand limited reg. Sheer numbers dictate that there will be some minor issues among pups and sheer numbers dictate that you need to sell more dogs...wherever they may go.  

I guess since I tend to have dogs that not everyone (certainly most the public who thinks it's ok to breed just to breed) likes, I have a lot of the burden lifted off of me for that, so I don't think I'm in a position to judge someone w/very different type dogs. No one in their right mind would buy any of my last litter for a pet. By pet, I mean couch weight, not that they cannot live w/kids, etc. Actually, all of them do live w/little kids, but very experienced handlers, some SchH, some military, some trainers. Anyway, what my foggy brain is trying to say is that I stand by my blanket "I don't like it" and agree w/Rik, though when I put myself in Kelly's shoes, I have to give her the benefit of the doubt and the credit I think she deserves for doing what she feels is right by her dogs. Now, I say this because I do not put her in the "hypocrite" category of the other well-known breeders who do this. I believe she is trying to protect her dogs, not her kennel name, and that's more than can be said for most.

And Bob, what's your deal w/what Rik said? I thought he went way out of his way (as best he can w/that piss poor personality) to explain his point and make sure it didn't sound like personal criticism. JMO, but I never thought it was an attack or even a dig, and your responses were a bit harsh. NMB.

Bob, what you are is a cyber baby. You think that because you sit on your fat ass and see the GSD world from a computer screen that you have advanced the breed.

Rik

I love uplifting post,s... wait, I feel a tear welling up. 

Rik, what is your problem?  Because others have different opinions from yours, they are crybabies now, or lazy and fat? 

I sell puppies on limited registration and have no problems doing so.  If someone such as yourself plans on breeding your dog before legitimate titles and health checks, then you protest the limited.  It's usually as simple as that.  People who don't plan on breeding their dog at all, or who are not interested in breeding underage, un-health checked dogs, are not concerned with the limited registration.  I've been breeding for 16 years and have always sold ALL puppies on limited registrations.  Yes, will consider selling on full to people I know personally and know they are a) not breeders or b) title their dogs before breeding.

And yes, I'm breeding several litters per year.  Yes, I would keep a puppy from each and every litter for myself - so yes I am breeding dogs that I myself would own, keep and title.  Yes, I sell most of the puppies.  Yes, I sell all puppies on limited registration and no there isn't a different price if I do agree to sell them on full registration.  Yes, I sell most puppies for working - serious sport, serious competition, fun sport, fun training, active pets, family pets, herding, service animals, SAR, Police, detection. 

I'm also not a hypocrite.  I demand exactly the same pre-breeding requirements as I myself require from my own breeding dogs.  Schutzhund title or equivalent (advanced level of dog sport, Police, Herding, SAR) and hips/elbows before I breed my own dogs.  Yes, every single dog I breed is legitimately titled, trained, conformation rated, most of them breed surveyed, and health checked before they are bred.  No, I've never had an accidental litter and never bred an untitled/underage or un-health checked dog.  

Why would I consider selling my puppies from my titled, health-checked dogs, with full registration to someone who would turn around and use my kennel name and my bloodlines to breed without the same proof of breedworthiness their parents were required to have before breeding?  I don't see the purpose of doing that. 

And yes, I trust my puppy owners.  To a point.  But lots of things can be said, false impressions can be made, and then true colors can be shown after the deed is done.  Oops.  Learned the hard way.  I hate when that happens.  I hear about it all the time.  Someone's kennel name and bloodlines are in the pedigree of a dog named N.  I think not.

As for keeping in touch with puppies and their owners, I am one who does more than most.  I have a private eichenluftpups yahoo group where all puppy owners can keep in touch with me and with each other, share pictures, brags, questions and stories.  Also a facebook group.  And I am the only breeder I am aware of who has a yearly "puppy reunion" at my facility, every year - every owner is invited to come with their dogs and meet other puppy owners and their dogs, where dogs are worked all weekend, and where everyone can see for themselves the dogs being produced by eichenluft and meet their very happy owners.  The eichenluft-pup reunion - there are pictures on my website go see for yourself.  http://workinggermanshepherd.com

Ok guys, you don't like each other, we get it. Can we keep a productive discussion productive?

Jenni, thanks for understanding. I have trained SO many puppies in over a decade from folks who bought dogs from decent breeders then bred those dogs together and the results were NOT good. This is what happens when people play with breeding. I've seen dogs with horrible health, violent tendencies, nerve problems, you name it.

I saw a pup last year whose parents were from two well known breeders. The lines, however, I would not breed together if you put a gun to my head. Take every dog you know that throws a health problem and slap it one pedigree, and I bet my paycheck that pup's back end is shot by 4 years old, and it already has had some health issues.  And I'm sure all the "breeder" saw were their two expensive puppies they bought from big name breeders and what "wonderful" puppies they'd produce. Will they screen buyers, too? I bet not. Then what, my dog's grandpuppies, sittiing shelters? The thought makes me ill. Maybe that means I'm too soft to be a breeder.

VKGSDS- I respect what you're saying, 100%. I think a breeder, once that pup is sold, has less than zero business telling a buyer how to train, what to do, what to feed (I know it hurts sometimes), whether or not you can sneeze around your dog and what color collar it should wear. A guarantee should not come with a laundry list of stipulations that bascially say, "Do everything they way I say or I guarantee nothing."

Using LR was a hard choice for me because while I'm protective of my puppies I don't want to put in the same category as some of the crazies or moneygrubbers.

When you are part of the GSD world, you see your dogs. You see club members dogs. You see dogs at events, and every now and again, at the pet store, the vets office, or around the neighborhood, you see that indiscriminately bred GSD that makes you want to smack a breeder somewhere.  I operate in the opposite. I see those BYB bred GSDs (or poorly placed well bred GSDs) every day. I have my hands on them for training every day. I listen to their owners frustration when they seek my advice for their dog's health and temperament issues every day. Do you know how disheartening that is? Before you come down on breeders using LR, go out and train a few dozen very poorly bred GSDs. If you don't agree after that, I bet you will at least understand. Not MY dogs. Hell no.

Nearly every breeder using LR has a different set of terms. I think a buyer needs to look at that breeder's terms, and decide whether or not they will abide by them when they purchase the dog. No right or wrong here, only what works for the breeder, the buyer, and most importantly, the dog.

 I actually forgot to touch on that because I wanted to wait til the end so as not to get carried away. 

I have only  intact dogs. Period. Of all the dogs I own, intact, only one is a breeding animal. 

Wanting to own all of what you paid for has many many reasons; breeding is about the least of them sometimes. It really is insulting to be told that to oppose rules on our personal property (sorry, but that's how the law sees animals) means we must have some shady motive. 

I guarantee that many, if not most, of the dogs some breeders lift the limited regs on, I would not breed.