What would you change? - Page 2

"he screamed at me that he was going to sue me if my (showline) dog bit him!" You should have told him that you'd come back after he was through with his period. :)

Proud Poppa, are you sure you'd let go of your dog if a helper yelled at you? Why would you take a chance of permanent damage to the dog or helper? Maybe that's why helpers are hard to find. It is a thankless job (unless you charge for lessons) and you deal with a lot of people who want to be guided through everything. Very few want to open a book or read an article on schutzhund. You take someone under your wing teach them how to track and then monitor there progress by asking how many times they tracked this week. They proceed to tell you how busy they are, but still expect you to be there when they "have the time." Give it a break most people truely aren't willing to give the time or effort needed for this sport. And guess what happens when you honestly evaluate a dog!!! The helpers program is a lot further along than I have seen it. We get people all the time that say they want to be helpers. They take the instruction and then decide it's too physically demanding or they have their own ideas or they're just plain blockheads. Do you folks know how long it takes to learn to properly read a dog? Some people have to be dictators in order to get anything done. A lot of that could be eliminated by the club membership. Many people come out to train and are upset that they are asked to set up the field for protection or obedience. You get smartass crap like what did I pay my dues for. It certainly wasn't for the helpers to do all the work. Finally, how many people take the time at the end of or after a trial (whether you pass or fail and go thank the helper)? I could go on, but I know I've probably upset more than a few of you. It's a two way street; look at it from both sides.

There was once an old guy at our club that basically wouldnt spend too much time w./ new comers until they had been around for 4 or 5 months. he used to say that 95% of the folks who come wont last that long. And as a helper, i can see his point. its a bit frustrateing to work hard to get a dog to bite or bark (since a lot of dogs beginers have are pets or not from working lines), only to have them not show up for 3 or 4 weeks, then ive gotta do everthing all over again. My club doens have a "training director" due to the many different styles of training, but new members are assigned a mentor that helps them. but that means the mentor must be at training regularly. and in my experience, most clubs have 2 or 3 people that are training at a higher level, and a few that train for local trials, or when they have time. (as a new father im starting to become the latter) so unfortunaly the newcomers may become a burden on the serious trainers in the club. Ive also found that those w/ the most skills and experience have small training group, and charge everyone else to train. Which may or may not be a bad thing. Lastly i think if USA where to start inspecting clubs and monitoring training techniques, a lot of really good helpers and trainers would quite the club and form training groups. which would leave the rest of us training w/ out direction or having to pay for it. just my 2 cents

I think I will go back there, now that I have learned what I have, and worked my dogs with OTHER people. It would be interesting to see the sort of response I get to go back with an over-enthusiastic drivey titled showline female and a SchH3, FH2 male (of course, I am sure there will be SOMETHING wrong with them...that seems to be the case unless the dog was bred or trained or purchased by someone within the "hierarchy" of the club. Maybe I am wrong, and I sincerely HOPE that I am!!!) I am always willing to try again, as it is very close to my house, and WOULD be very convenient. Instead, what I have done is go WAAAAAAYYYYYYY out of my way, do the training here on our property now that I have a clue, or send the dog to Germany if I feel they are more than I can PROPERLY handle. As far as letting my dog bite him, I also thought he was out of line, and it WAS highly embarassing, but I would NEVER purposely let my dog attack someone. That would make me as bad as he was. I can't imagine such a spectacle in front of an SV Judge!!! As for waiting 4-5 months for someone to be going to club meetings before becoming involved??? That's sheer stupidity, in my opinion. People are going to feel like they are not learning anything and that the club doesn't really want them there, and just have them there to pay dues to watch everyone ELSE learn and work while they SIT THERE and learn nothing. If I had the time and the inclination, I would start my own club here, where people would be welcomed, regardless of whether they had show or working lines, were newbies or old salts, and without the politics that seems to follow these clubs!! Maybe once my kids are grown..... Nice to see this thread get some attention--there are some great perspectives, and it's always nice to hear other people's opinions.

"Lastly i think if USA where to start inspecting clubs and monitoring training techniques, a lot of really good helpers and trainers would quite the club and form training groups. which would leave the rest of us training w/ out direction or having to pay for it." huh? Can you explain? The club report idea is kind of interesting, don't know if that is what is making you think people would quit, not sure why it would. It would be interesting to see that club A has 1 helper, 20 members and 37 dogs, and members got 3 new titles, etc etc, whereas club B has 5 helpers, 10 members, and got 5 new titles. Or whatever. I don't think there's really a way they can keep tabs on everything. Even if there are things way out of line, someone has to report them. Since people are often in a particular club because they like the people and training there - it fits their style - it's doubtful USA would be able to really know what was going on unless they are getting complaints. It's like Uwe said in the BOI thread. If something is wrong, it can't be changed or penalized unless someone not only makes it known, but files charges. I would love to see more club info sometime - # of members, dogs, etc. A club report would be touching on the surface of what's happening at local levels, not reinventing it.

LaPorte - I think when they start critique training methods a lot of the guys and gals who are at the top would say "go to hell " ill train w/ a small group that isnt affilated w/ USA. how can some one show up to Wallace Payne's Club and tell him he cant teach the forced retrieve, or tell T. Floyd or Gary they use too much e-collar. If it got to that point i think they would not train w. a club. As a club you are able to vote and hold local trial, other than that i dont see any benefit to being a USA club vs a training group.

Spook, no I would not risk hurting my dog. My point being that, IMHO this helper screaming about suing is a little ridiculous. It would be like an amature boxer trying to sue his opponent for a broken nose. Also, if a helper loses control of himself to the point that he is screaming at the dog and/or the handler I really don't think I would WANT that particular person working my dog, for the same reason, my dog might be hurt. As was stated before, it takes a certain sort of temperament to be a good helper, and screaming at the handler ain't it.

I would also like to draw a parallel with my experience with martial arts classes. Nine out of ten who begin do not continue on with the training. That is just a fact of life. This is not a completely bad thing. At least they walk away with a better understanding of what the sport actually is and what is involved with being good at it. A good instructor will recognise that from the beginning and not consider those nine people a waste of time.

i see your point but did the 9 that walk away pay the instructor for the lessons they attended? i know of training groups where the trainer/helper charges $20 or so dollars per session. the door is always open for anyone w/ any type dog. But for the clubs that dont charge for you to work your dog i think it is a different story. I think time would have been wasted on the 9 folks that dont continue to train. its also frustrating dealing w/ folks who are new and think they know everything. The very 1st trainer i trained w/ used to have a saying "ill F**k you dog up as bad as you want me to, just tell me how" and ive recently adopted that theory. I know its tough for those new to the sport, but folks very rarely look at it from the other side.

Poppa, Scott is right. Your analogy is not valid for most of us. We don't charge members for the lessons where the Martial Arts instructor does. The paying of helpers, I believe will be the eventual downfall of the sport. A lot of new comers believe just because they pay for it, it's valid training. Unfortunately many of those that charge aren't that good.