Correct opening of the shoulder - Page 1

This is something I'd really like to discuss, as I know a common complaint about American show line dogs is how their fronts are too upright and straight.  Conversely, I've had trouble with WGSL dogs and finding correct shoulders that will open in motion as opposed to dogs that move from the elbow (American dogs have dogs that move from the elbow too, BTW, though we seem to tend towards other problems such as being lifty).

So, could you post photos of what you think a correct shoulder opening looks like?  ANY line is acceptable for this use...open is open, and the whole breed should be able to open at the shoulder.

Also please keep in mind that we're ONLY looking at fronts right now.

Baby Mirada, working on gaiting


At 9 months


At 11 Months


13 months


And last month:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPJPE9oNN7A 

Once again I would use this video of Dingo.

I think the difference also is the manner they are shown. All these photos are of the dog with the space to open up. In the AKC ring they are restricted like a horse with a check reign held upright and pulled in causeing them to seek other attributes and physical function to get the trot they were bred to do reminding me of a harness trotter with the head held up and back yet trying to obtain the distance speed in their stride.

Actually Xeph, I think your dog has pretty good reach. Her still photos indicate a very nice shoulder and a long humerus. The movement photos show that she can open her shoulder joint correctly.

Dingo was the obvious choice, Blitzen, so I left him out, lol.

In the AKC ring they are restricted like a horse with a check reign held upright and pulled in causeing them to seek other attributes and physical function to get the trot they were bred to do reminding me of a harness trotter with the head held up and back yet trying to obtain the distance speed in their stride.

I do strongly disagree in regards to HOW they are shown (particularly at specialties, where the rings are much bigger).  My bitch is shown on the down and back, and on the go around loose.  If she's gaiting next to me she'll put her head up a bit of her own accord, but that's not something I taught her.

The AKC all breed ring is DEFINITELY smaller (which can cause a problem), but while handlers are trying to keep dogs a little closer on the down and back, the majority do not string up their dogs (unless their dog tends towards being unruly).

AKC GSD exhibitors tend to not want to REALLY train their dogs beyond teaching them how to fly around the ring.  Things like free stacking, moving nice and easy on the down and back, and a dog actually trained to not jump all over people are not overall common.

You see a little more free stacking in the all breed ring,  but not much.  It's telling, because I have people oohing and aahing over Mirada when we're ring since she was taught to freestack, like it's some great feat I accomplished.

All I did was train my dog.

Here's Rada in her 12-18 class back in March
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ty0fY3TIvo

Apologies for the quality...hoping for a better camera soon

Loose lead, not strung up.  Lots of times you see dogs strung up on the down and back because, as I said, they weren't taught to go easy...and the judges don't care (largely at specialties...down and back is important to most all breed judges).

Actually Xeph, I think your dog has pretty good reach.
Oh I agree :)  I was using her as an example of what I think is a proper shoulder opening.  She could use a slightly longer upper arm, but as a whole, if you take functionality into account, I feel her front reach is more than sufficient.

I need to try and get new movement video of Strauss.  He's not got a correct shoulder opening at all.

I did not say she was strung up. I said the horses were strung up. I said the size of ring limits the dogs LIKE the check rein on a horse. Horse people will probably get my point easier than it sounds to you.

Yep, Dingo can cover some ground.  There are many factors to get a dog to move like this.  One they need to be in tip top shape;  they need to be taught to move like this, they DO need the physical structure and layback and length of neck, however, you can tell that this dog does or has been roadworked which makes all the difference in the world.  You can teach your dog to move like this, biking, road working with you holding the dog and someone else driving while the dog is gating usually about 5 mph + or -;  best of luck  Nan

PS:  The above dog is a very nice girl, moves very well, however, you cannot expect her to move to her fullest potential until she reaches complete maturity;  then and only then the dog will be what she is going to be for life, she will reach her best movement then.  She is just past baby hood.  Nan

Very true, Nan, and some dogs just seem to use themselves better than others. For many years we were taught that no dog can step out farther than its shoulder layback will allow. We now know that conditioning and training is a big factor too.

This is a picture of a dog who went VA in the US in the last couple of years. It was a casual picture taking of him moving and playing ball, so obviously it's not a perfect shot, but it does show his shoulder opening very nicely.....