Top GSD Showline Males Currently Prepotent For Protection - Page 10

YES a call for action ...... and indeed when I look back to what I first saw at San Jose in 2008.... what I now see 3 years later is that there is more awareness of the need for the pendulum to swing the other way.... The very fact that you are having a dialogue of this size on an issue as which lines are prepotent for better working ability is testimony that a slow but steady change is underway....and that the storm I had to endure in May 2008 for publicizing the videos of the 2008 working males was indeed worth the pain. But now this movement alone will not produce results.... there needs to be an identification of those breeders who in the past 5-6 years have actually bred dogs that have performed in both conformation and the working field at higher than the club level. WHY?.... because these are the breeders who have done it and hence are most likely to do so again..... When you apply that metric, I find only a few names popping up in the US.... 1. Mary Dygert of Temar kennels .... breeder of Ule v. Temar (USCA Univ. Sieger 2008) & Griff v. Temar 2. Julie Martinez of Mittlewest Kennels ... breeder of VA Fabian v. Mittlewest (2005 USCA Univ. Sieger) & Vandal v. Mittlewest (2011 USCA Univ. Siegers) 3. Randy Tyson of Witmer Tyson Kennels... breeder of Juneau v. haus Tyson I would add 1 more names to this list.... 1. John Henkel of Willendorf who I have seen work dogs and who knows what it takes to raise a pup to full working potential.... the fact that he chooses to focus on the conformation ring does not take that away from his capacity to guide a pup owner My own experience is that for the 1st 18 months the new owner is very dependent on guidance from the breeder in the raising up of the puppy and hence IF THE GOAL IS TO DEVELOP A PUP TO ITS FULL CONFORMATION & WORKING ABILITY..... THEN.... it is imperative to have the guidance of breeder who is experienced in more than gaiting and stacking a pup. Then once you have your pup and your breeder.... you need your training mentor.... For a new owner seeking to acquire training knowledge be prepared... such knowledge is not cheap either in terms of cost or in time.... you will have to put yourself through college over a 3 year period... so pick your school well...and once chosen do not switch.... a top trainer is a top trainer and is worthy of your loyalty and respect. So yes the road ahead may seem long and hard but I see that the average joe has begun to walk...stumbling maybe but definitely not backward..... the years ahead are to me full of promise and exciting fun.

Ravi,
I agree with you and an excellent post. 

To clarify something, I do not believe any said a dog should be left alone for 9 - 12 months before any training.  I agree with proper foundation work, imprinting and socialization.  My dogs are all raised in my house from pups and socialized, imprinted and raised with a certain philosophy and method.  I have had SL and WL dogs and they all have had great drive focus, love to track and work.  I have HOT and titled all of my dogs, event the V rated SchH 3 KKL1a SL male I had.  My current male is my working Police K-9 that I raised and trained from a pup.  All of these dogs have lived in my house and are my "pets" as well.  None of them have been ruined and absolutely all of them want to work every day, even though they are with me everyday. 

I have been involved in SchH since the mid 90's and trained for years with an excellent GSD club with primarily SL dogs.  I have decoyed for many SL and WL dogs and have seen SL litter mates come down to training.  I have seen dogs with good potential to be trained and titled go to pet homes and never want to work.  I have seen dogs from the same litter with less promise bloom and become titled because of the hard work, diligence, patience and proper rearing of the dog.  The fact that Gustav and I mentioned that dogs meant for Police work are sold "green" at a year or more to PD's doesn't mean these dogs are left alone.  They are socialized and more often than not imprinted with a proper foundation.  Obviously, leaving any dog "alone" for 9- 12 months would not be beneficial and not what we intended.  Just as raising a SL or WL dog in a pet environment, constantly hearing "no" and "no bite" is not advisable.  

The bottom line is that for many breeders dogs are simply commodities.  Many breeders hope one dog out of a litter is going to turn out well and be placed into a home that will raise it, train and show it.  It is rare to find these homes that will actually follow through with all of the hard work and dedication.  Then you read some of the recent threads on here and see how some of the SL breeders really feel about dogs.  Owners /  breeders with high placing dogs that are more worried about animal control than the welfare of the breed we are supposed to love and care for. 

I suppose I am naive because I seem to be constantly surprised to learn that some breeders only care about having the "top" or the next VA dogs and the money.  I agree that we need to support the breeders that actually care about the welfare of animals and work and actively train their dogs.  It is more than just buying and paying someone to show your dog at the NASS.  There are some excellent breeders who are committed to producing anatomically correct dogs with great temperaments that can show and be titled.  People interested in showing and working their dogs need to seek those breeders out.  As DJC mentioned, those breeders should not be bothered by the negative comments and I am sure they realize they are not directed at them.  I would rather say to the SL breeders who are in it solely for the money; shame on you.  Take a good look at yourself and see if what you are breeding actually benefits the breed more than your bank account.  If you have never titled a dog yourself, never really produced any dogs capable of being titled in anything or capable of any kind of work, or being shown past the puppy classes then shame on you.   If your big claim to fame is buying a V or VA titled dog to show and stud or have litters and do nothing else, well you should be offended by the negative statements they may be directed at you.  If you never hold back a puppy and train and title it then show it yourself, well again shame on you.  In reality titling a dog with decent drives is not that difficult if you put the time in and work your dogs.  Any one showing a dog at the SS should be have at least the experience of training their own dog.  Maybe once the breeders that actually put forth the effort get acknowledged things will start to change. 


One nice thing about forums like this is the ability to do research and see some of the so called "professionals" for who they really are.  I have added one more breeder this week to my list of never referring or using after reading some of their comments on the PDB.  I have also found a couple that I am very impressed with as well.    
 

 

Ravi,
 We posted at the same time.  When I said I agree and your post was excellent I was referring to your post on page 9.  Ditto for the post on this page.  Excellent advice and a great outlook towards the future. 

Jim

Jim, we are entirely on the same page and along with Ravi's enjoyed reading your excellent posts. Kevin Nance

Kevin,
I enjoy reading your posts as well.

No matter how good a breeder...the work of breeder can only be showcased by the owner/handler.... Mary Dygert's breedings or for that matter Julie Martinez's work would not be recognized if there were no Karen Sinclair, Gene Kalvaitis, T Floyd or Kevin Nance..... Yes such handlers are few..... but breeders need to recognize that and factor that into the cost of their operations as part of the process of showcasing their kennels product..... Breeders need to seek out such handlers and build relationships with them and participate to build a team..... As this movement towards increasing public demand for working ability capable, balanced GSD's progresses, the foarward thinking breeder will actively seek to foster and cultivate these relationships. Or he will invest in training seminars for his most promising puppy owners so that the art and skill of training is not locked away in Schutzhund's elitist ivory towers but slowly filter out towards the general public. I am a very strong believer that knowledge has the power to be a rising tide that "lifts all ships", .... and not simply be a deluge that washes away the debris of outdated ideas and practices.

I agree with most of you. The thing I can't condone, is telling SL people that it CAN"T be done, there is no hope and that there are no SLs out there proponent for working qualities. 
Lets take it a step further...
How about some top handlers stepping up and taking a SL puppy to raise to work and show?! We all seem to know that there are VERY FEW out there, so lets have some experienced people step up and take the chance.
Debby

I understand what Debbie says... since I was told the same by a prominent Conformation breeder that I cannot as a first time dog owner take my pup from zero and title him..... I replied her by earning my dog's 1st SchH title on that very same breeders club field 18 months later. But reather than top handlers taking apup... what is needed is for average folk to realize that if I could title my showline pup while working as a busy physician in betrween hospital call and office clinic, working 12 hrs days.... and not only do it but also title him at the SchH3 level 9 times, of which 2 were regional chamionships.... and that I had never ever owned a dog before this in my lifetime.... and that the rest of my family are as pet oriented and ANTI-Working dog as they can be found.... then why can you not do it? or for that matter anyone else???.... I don't mean that with any arrogance.....just a simple question.... I can tell you that all it requires is 1. Love for your dog and confidence in your relationship with your dog. 2. A desire to explore and play with your dog in a sense of discovery and partnership 3. A willingness to go to anyone who can teach you something new even if it is only a 5 minutes of a new lesson. 4. An ability to stay humble and trust your teacher no matter how hard the lesson. 5. A willingness to be an unyielding leader for your dog... Disciplined and fair and never fall into the soft trap that love means never having to be hard and demanding. It is average folk that need to realize that they can compete and title their showline dogs themselves... but they need to devote time.... They need to select the pup carefully, train diligently but they can do it.... Only average Joe Public has the love for their dog.... not a professional trainer.... they are the people who will eventually save the breed.

I agree Ravi! Many many cudos to you!!
Debby

Kevin, Jim..... Thank you.... I really do enjoy reading all your posts on the many threads I come across.. I would like to shift tack in this dialogue a little bit without I believe moving OT. The title "Currently Prepotent for Protection" suggests a predetermined bias, that I think is a flaw in thinking... in that it is very unidimensional in its approach to the multiple factors that are needed in a GSD..... The ability to Protect carries within it multiple layers of behaviors and qualities.... and this in my mind needs to be clearly brought out or else the novice who reads this thread is apt to assume that this equates with the ability to bite and hold on. I currently have a new pup (11 weeks old yesterday) that I am raising.... and he's opening my eyes to GSD behavior in ways that are very interesting. It is not that he is unique.... it is more that I now am able to see and recognize more than what I was capable before. But for those who are looking to experience the bond of partnership with a working canine....these are a few of the qualities that I beleive you will have to foster.... 1. Encourage exploration, mischeif and adventure in your pup. 2. Teach him to win and couple this with a small deal where he wins when he does something for you. 3. The techniques of target traiuning and clicker are superb for puppy imprinting and behavior shaping. 4. I use discipline too but I will grip the fur on the neck firmly while utterring a low guttural growlling sound when I want him to stop.... and then release and carry on as if nothing more needs to be said... I do not nag and I do not carry a grudge.... very important qualities to develop whether you are training dogs or you are leading a corporation. 5. Make everything a game and there is no end to this except your imagination..... any object can become a toy.... but only I decide what will become a toy.... I do not allow him to choose the toy.... but once I decide that a piece of wood or a leaf has become a toy then we play with abandon and creativity..... Then when the game is over the toy is "RETIRED" until I decide to bring it into play again.... if he tries to activate a toy I do not engage.... and then sometimes I will decide to play on out of the blue..... It is this flirting that goes on between him and me that makes me so interesting to him.... This shifts the interaction from the "TOY" which is merely an "OBJECT" to the "HANDLER" who is "ALIVE" all the time and infinitely more fun..... Bonds that are built this way become eerie in their subtlety and strength. There is a lot more but this is a start... a good start....