Top GSD Showline Males Currently Prepotent For Protection - Page 5

Jim, a question from you form someone who's still learning. I agree with you 100% that if the dogs from NASS were put in the same conditions of the BSZS for their courage tests, most would have run or at least not engaged, espically if the helper work was the same. I know there is no simple answer to this, by why do you think that is? Is it because in Germany they are able to train for exactly that scenario, with different helpers on different fields working the dogs the same way they do at the BSZS? Or is it the dogs themselves? Or the handlers, or something else? I'm asking you since you have both WL and SL experience and appreciate the SLs that can really work as much as I do. Thanks in advance!

Ps. When you mentioned dog from the BSZS whose bitework you liked, I knew immediately you were talking of Ballack. Like Kevin I had the priviledge of seeing in in Austria, and I personally think he was even better in the BSZS video than when I saw him in person. A very nice dog.

I, too, knew Jim was talking about Ballack. He was the only dog among the top 12 who demonstrated the capability to perform at a good club or regional (LGA) level. Some others may have once had that ability, but their training and preparation unlike Ballack's preclude being able to make that evaluation. Kevin Nance

Champion,
Kevin has summed it up very well.  I think that there is greater access to SchH clubs and skilled decoys in Germany than we have here.  The US is a huge country and SchH is not as popular or accessible here as it is in Germany.  In Germany every town has a SchH club or clubs and training fields, like we have baseball fields for little league.  I know people in Germany that train at several clubs on a regular basis.  I would have to travel 3 or 4 hours in one direction to find a few clubs to train with.  I believe training is a big part of it, the Germans have been doing it for a long time and most would be embarrassed to bring a dog to the BSZS that couldn't heal properly off lead. 

I would also add it is easier to travel to find good studs for breeders.  There are many breeders in the US that are doing a good job and making great strides.  It was nice to watch Griff's work as he was well handled and trained.  It is unfortunate that some of the  dogs at our national events are not properly trained and prepared for the bite work.  I think if more emphasis was placed on the bite work portion than more handlers would train even harder and breeders would select the dogs that produce strong dogs.  I think it is a matter of priorities on everyone's part, the breeders, the breed organizations and the ultimately the consumers.  Threads like these bring the issues out and get people thinking and talking.  We need to support and promote the breeders that produce beautiful, anatomically correct dogs that can work. 

Jim

Not all showlines trained in America are wash outs at the Sieger. About 5  years ago a friend took her HOT Sch3 female to the BSZS where she received a standing ovation for her bitework. I was told the judge wrote a very long and glowing critique of her for a German magazine. Lanting saw her there and complimented her and her owner in his impressions of the 2005 sieger.  She placed a very respectful V86 in spite of no previous campaigning or advertising and being owned and trained by an American.

She was German bred from dogs known for producing above average bitework, her sire was Cary v Fiemereck (sp?). I did not know this dog, but I have learned that his reputation for producing good working dogs was well recognized. She was imported at 6 months and HOT'd in the US for all her titles. She earned her Sch3 at local trials in the US and also had a UD, IPO3, herding titles, and all advanced agiltiy titles and more. This was the second GSD this lady trained to a Sch3, IPO3, UDT, etc, etc, etc.

If the SV would approve the use of frozen semen, it would give more breeders in the US access to the good working SL dogs in Germany. Breeding to dogs we haven't seen isn't as risky as it once was, now we can see them on videos and use boards like this one to discuss their performances.

You could immediately tell from Griff's tail carriage that he meant business.

I also thought Django (@ 1:15) & Camillo (@ 9:00) looked good with both having Yasko blood, 3:4 in the case of Django along with an interesting pedigree -  http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=676852 

AandA

Champion,

The level of work will be set to allow a balance of performance and participation. Don't expect that to change in the near future. It's up to the owners to decide what they want to showcase on the field. A performance with a few tricks to hide shortcomings or a straight up performance they can be proud of. It's then up to the people at the show to look at the performance and determine what they see on the field. If you want more of a test, make the journey to Canada. Those Canadians don't mind seeing a few show dogs not pass. Your good show dog will have a chance to show itself better with more of a challenge from the helper too.

There's good and bad news for the conformation community.

The good. It appears there are some dogs making it to the VA group that show promise to improve the working ability. Dogs like Ballack and Quana are showing breeders that working ability is beginning to count in the placement. We saw Ballack. Here's a video from Quana. This is her 2009 performance. I think her 2009 performance was better than her 2011 performance which won her a performance award.

http://www.biberfalle.com/media/files/Web_Film_wmv.wmv

She is the product of a small breeder with an emphasis on the total dog, a showline with both structure and the genetics to work. Nothing overdone, no extremes. Quana's mother is from a working judges kennel, father is from a male identified as one who produces working ability. Mother and father were well but moderately placed at the sieger show as was Quana in the beginning. The result; when you breed for the overall dog and it does well, it's a dog you can be extremely proud of.

How did she get there? No big breeder, no big support network, just a good solid dog with good training. Judge was able to pick her out in the crowd. Which judge was able to do this? Frank Goldlust. He will be judging the next USA sieger show. Maybe he's a judge that takes into account performance.

The bad? Where are the genetics? As the recognition of the need for working ability increases, the gene pool for the dogs that have it to pass it on decrease.

In the conformation world, there's a balance between structure and ability. There are some beautiful dogs out there that place very high in conformation. If you have one and it doesn't make it past the protection, what do you have? A lot of time, effort, and expense only to come up short. It doesn't take many of these to rework your program. In the end it's up to the individual breeder to decide what the goals of their breeding program are.

That was a really nice performance without some of the problems mentioned by slamdunc in regards to the other dogs......I thought the offlead heeling was well done.  The handler did not need to "pump up" the dog fo rthe long exercise.
Quite the contrary!  It seemed the handler was having a difficult time restraining her........She couldn't wait to go!

There was a video on Lida's web site showing Triumph Gucci's bitework.  It brought tears to my eyes....The dog seemed to launch at the decoy.
Also an interview with Herr Martin of Wienerau.  He was talking about working ability and his dog Zamb Wienerau.....I don't remember where I saw it.......Fred Lanting's site maybe???
I think Zamb is behind some of the dogs already mentioned.

Thanls for posting that video, Randy.  Where is Quana now?

Quana is just South of Ulm with Ingrid her breeder/co owner. Quana is co owned with Dagmar, the owner of Quana's father Tiras Roten Feld. It's a great story, great accomplishment, and a super dog that came from where very few VA dogs come from. Quana has a very nice sister also.

 Many of the dogs discussed in this thread are behind her, especially Mark.
  I've always loved the stories of the little guys making it big....restores my faith in humanity.

 I researched pedigrees many years ago, reading everything I could get my hands on and talking to whoever would listen and let me pick their brain.  Unfortunately, due to the passage of time and the family taking over the spotlight, I have forgotten some of the history.                                                                                                           
..But, for what it's worth, a few reputed to have a strong work ethic have stuck in my feeble little brain......almost any Kirschental dog especially Ziewa.  The v. Hirschel dogs Nero And Fanto, Zamb Wienerau, Amigo Belgier, Murrenhutte dogs.
It would be interesting to look at the trainers behind some of these guys and see if there is any common denominator.....................but I suppose that could degenerate into a mess and the thread would get deleted.
This has been a very informative thread.
Thanks to all who posted.