Top GSD Showline Males Currently Prepotent For Protection - Page 8

Yes, but never tell the puppy "No Bite" or just plain "No."  Then you might have a chance.  Anything done to encourage bite inhibition will greatly diminish your chances.  I agree with Gustav, those raising dogs for Police work as he is discussing know how to raise puppies.  Those dogs are also genetically predisposed for work and not raised as pets constantly under their owners thumb.  I agree the dog either has it or doesn't, but for many dogs "it" can be taken away, enhanced, or diminished by the dog's home environment. 

I am trying to train a 2 year old male German SL now for SchH.  A beautiful dog bred by a member of this forum.  A nicely built dog with a nice SL pedigree.  It took a few weeks to teach the dog how to play and get some drive.  It has taken a few months to get the dog to bite a sleeve.  Part of the problem is the genetics and part is the raising and training of the dog from a pup.  The dog was raised as a pet and it really shows.

Jim

I never do any formal training with the dog in obedience until between 10 months and 14 months, depending on when the preceding dog leaves. I mean like sit and down and stay , even a relaible come. I agree with Jim about the not inhibiting the bite, but frankly when we start training seriously at around one year...the dog takes right off. Not trying to derail the topic, but I think that if a dog has it in them, a good training program once started will bring it right to surface. I do think that with marginal working dogs you may have these issues, but frankly imprinting young dogs is a fairly new concept and really should not be necessary for a good strong dog.

Theresa, I wish you the absolute best in your endeavors with your pup. And, as Randy pointed out, I am very familiar with Ricco's pedigree. Folks like yourself, Karen Sinclair, Heidi Theis, Ravi Iyer, Erin, and Randy give some hope that maybe we can improve our show lines. Warmest regards, Kevin Nance

To Randy - Gustav and Jim summed it up well with regard to a police prospect or high level competition dog with a competent trainer. However, it has been my limited experience that the average club level schutzhund trainer who takes this advice literally to heart by kenneling with too little socialization or obedience a powerful dog ends up with far more than they can handle or even title. There are no set in stone rules or philosophies applicable to every situation as Jim and Gustav would no doubt readily agree. In the end analysis, it is absolutely imperative to have access to quality training and guidance hopefully from within a good club environment. I have been fortunate in that respect. Kevin Nance

Thanks Kevin. I will look for more information and videos.

Kevin,

I like your summary. I think reading through Gustav's and Jim's post I see a difference maybe you can comment on. You mentiond if you had a dog from the beginning his performance could be better if I can paraphrase your comment.

Since you have experience with both lines. Have you seen a difference in training styles that work better with one line or the other?

I'll lead into it a little and ask you to expand if you can. Years ago as pointed out in a previous post the conformation line strategy was to simply grow the dog out and see if it was worthy of showing. Take the 18 month old dog and spend the next 6 whole months getting a dog that knows not much a SchH3 title.

fast forward to around 2002 and a bunch of dogs are failing the bitework. No fun. Time to see if these things can be trained. Unfortunately the methods used to train many of the working line dogs don't work on the showlines. Some trainers were able to adapt their styles to work with the conformation line dogs. It appears to be a progression as the dog matures and is able to move to the next level.

My question is have you noticed a difference in styles and better results as a result of a different approach?

I certainly understand about how a trainer or training methods can make a huge difference. I know when I first started out in Sch I was involved for 4 years in a strong nationally known working line club. I had a show line male, who was my first Sch dog. He was super had tons of drive + confidence and commanded their respect, even through all the jokes and snide comments. I took him to SchH 2 there. Once I left that club and got out and had more experience with different methods, lights started going on. That male always had problems capping, and was always on the edge of being out of control on the protection field. Looking back, I know now why this happened... because he was a "show line" the TD instructed me not to do ANY obedience or hard correction with him until he was a year old. This was because they thought it might suppress his drives. He was around 9 months old when we started and I had already done basic obedience and agility with him so he was not a tiny puppy.  We did tons of bite work (and tracking) as he grew, but the bite work was always.... run out on the field, get the bad guy, carry the sleeve, and repeat several times, then run off the field, to the car, with the sleeve and wait forever for him to drop it. We did this with no obedience or control at all. Keep in mind this dog did not need ANY drive building at all.  I know now that obedience should have been the largest part of it all as well as teaching him to cap right from the get go. It would have made him the competition dog that so many seasoned trainers said that he could have been. 
The reason I bring this up is, that I do not believe in judging a dog by whether it's a working line or a show line. Of course there are show dogs that can do national level competition and there have been in the past. Such as VA Triumphs Gucci who worked his way to "worlds" a couple years in a row and finished very respectably. While involved with that club I saw PLENTY of working lines that did not work also! I DO believe that the show lines have made, and continue to make strides to build working drives and that there are those of us who are paying attention to the right dogs to use to get this accomplished. This is the reason why this thread was started as well as a few others which have been extremely popular and well read. THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO ARE NOT WILLING TO LET THE SHOW LINES DIE OUT COMPLETELY in the working category. I DO NOT believe that they should be tested ANY differently EVER and that is the only way we are going to make show people care about training the dog correctly AND what lines they use. THAT is the part that will most likely never happen because of politics and money. I do not think that making those people who are interested in improving the show lines should be discouraged from doing so!!! Everyone knows Herr Flinks, the famous trainer and seminar giver... right? If you do you also know his views on show lines? Earlier this year he worked 2 of my show lines.... my current male and my very promising female. On my male, he said
"Now this is a showline I like! He loves the work, bites hard, full and calm. I would own him!" On my female, he said: "even though I would not own a dog like this, if all showlines worked like this I would not have a problem with them" So, here you have a famous die hard working line, sch expert who is honest enough to say it like it is and NOT generalize and write a dog off just because it is a show line!!! DO NOT discourage people from trying to improve and tell them it can't be done!! 
Debby

Randy, I will gladly attempt to address your point/question with the following qualifications.   Under my own auspices or in our home Alaska club environment I am a very good (SG) trainer.  I only offer glimpses of excellence when I am under the direct tutelage of my mentors Mark or Ann Marie Chaffin.  The work and ability that the T. Floyds,  Mike Diehls, Sean O'Kanes, Clement Dangs, Joel Monroes, etc... put on display at the National level is a quantum leap.  With that caveat, I will offer in the next post some of my experience that gets to the gist of your question regarding differing training methods for particular lines. Kevin Nance

DDR, West German, Belgium, Czech, show line, etc... all bring differing generalized drive structures to the table.  I will not articulate those "generalizations" as it will set off a tangent debate not pertinent to the point you are trying to make.  But, as an example I was working a dog from one of the aforementioned lines at High Plains Schutzhund who had been high in trial protection at a regional event.  After a great transition into the blind and powerful guarding Mark Chaffin instructed me to "give him a bite.". I did and he promptly slipped off of the sleeve.  After some additional guarding he instructed me to do so again with the same result.  Finally, in my best rendition of a prey bite within the confines of the blind, I unthreateningly raised the stick, looked away, popped the sleeve and essentially fed the dog until he was willing to take it from me out of the blind.  "What the heck," I asked Mark.

The dog, like many show lines, came from a lineage that traditionally matures more slowly but had been "pushed along."  The guarding was telling me there was power and temperament present which is one reason these lines are so popular; it was VERY nice.  But, the grip or lack thereof was a clear indication that he was absolutely lacking and in fact regressing.  He needed a lot of work to balance out his natural defense if he were ever going to perform in unfamiliar environments.

I have watched show lines being trained in Germany within those "6 month" programs.  I witnessed horrific grip behavior that would have stopped a competitive working line trainer from advancing the work in their tracks.  6 days, 6 weeks, or 6 months would have followed with the grips being the barometer that this dog was ready to advance.  Instead what occurred was the completion and repeat of the entire routine, followed by the next dog, and the next all with similar "issues." The men doing the work were typically very regimented in their approach as you would have to be to deliver 3 titles with a set price and limited time frame.  But, as an aspiring trainer and training helper who had been a part of and wished to emulate high quality work, I could only cringe.

BTW, any good trainer will recognize everything (and more) that I have mentioned and adjust accordingly.  Regards to you, Randy.   Kevin Nance

And, I'll offer one last example.  My wife is currently working a show line female who lacks the raw power and grip behavior Vandal brings to the table but shows "potential" to outscore him overall.  At an age well past when most show line bitches would have already had their Sch  3, we were considering going for her one.  But, the week of the trial  after a summer of twice daily work, Ann Marie observed  her coming out of the pocket under pressure so slightly that I hadn't even noticed.  The grips had remained stable throughout.  "I wouldn't trial her," came Ann Marie's advice.  I protested, "She is V tracking, damn close to V obedience, and I see nothing that would not indicate SG protection."

Ann Marie went on to explain how many times she had judged and heard the proverbial "my dogs never done that before" when it comes off the sleeve or has some other issue at trial.  "Sure she has," comes her reply over the typical protest of the handler to the contrary.  What she really means and explains further is your dog has been showing all kinds of signs in training that they are "ready" to come off the sleeve even if they haven't done so "yet.".

We opted not to trial and true to her point our female's outstanding guarding that had been "rock solid" and a source of pride since she was 14 months old also broke down in the coming weeks.  She has since received a very nice score and Sch 1 under Willie Pope second for high in trial only to Vandal's 281.

What I learned that day from Ann Marie was invaluable.  To paraphrase her a good trainer sees a problem, let's it go for awhile typically thinking it is an anomaly, is able to eventually fix it, and moves on; a very good trainer sees a problem and fixes it immediately; but, an EXCELLENT trainer sees a "problem" before it ever manifests itself and fixes it before any one else even notices.

Ah, to have that kind of eye.  It's what separates those routinely on the podium from the "rest of us.". Kevin Nance