Top GSD Showline Males Currently Prepotent For Protection - Page 9

Kevin,

Thanks for your response. It was interesting how you pointed out the difference between training a dog to be titled for money where the training is done just to get the dog to pass as they don't get a dime more if it passes with a high score or a low score vs. the training that is done by someone with a vested interest in the dog that wants to put on the field a finished product they can be proud of.

There's a black hole most SL dogs are thrown into. The owners/breeders want a titled dog. They really are not into training that much, otherwise they would have gotten a WL. Still they want to do what's right and title the dog. Training opportunities are few and far between for most. So the dog sits around until it's old enough to go to Germany and get a breeding SchH title. Is it any wonder they perform as they do?

More and more I hear success stories of how a SL is working on the level of a decent working line dog. Your example and Vandal are but two. Debby has an example. T Floyd has an example. We had a whole thread identifying dogs that were examples. What I'm beginning to see in the SL community is a realization that training does not necessarily equal performance. The training needs to be good training as you described.

Aly vom Vordersteinwald's....  progeny have done well in both.  
   He was an incredible producer, but was not a exceptional dog
himself.....You always want to see him in your dogs pedigree for
work.
     
The Dam brings 60- 75% of the litters genetics, unless the
male is line bred, to bring it closer to 50/50. Also you must
take into account common ancestors.
 When you say Top showlines ..there are no top show line producers
of working dogs.....Hope that helps.              I am

Kevin, Reading your stories, I see that you are much wiser and seasoned than you let on. :-) I don't think you give yourself enough credit. Very keen eye indeed. I truly wish you the very best. Theresa

Theresa, thank you for the kind words. And, best of luck in your Universal Sieger endeavors. Whether working or show line, it is a great concept that represents the best of the totality of our breeding standard. Warm regards, Kevin Nance

Really enjoyed reading Kevin's boldly honest, accurate, insightful and educating posts.... Thanks for daring to carry the torch..... Ravi Iyer

There are a few comments that I would add to what Randy (Dog1) and Kevin have posted. I do not beleive that a showline dog or any dog for that matter needs to be left alone for 9-12 months before attempting to do any training. But the problem does lie in that there are very few people who know how to work with a puppy to begin building habits and drives that can form the foundation for a solid work ethic later. I find that the best way to actually raise a dog..... ANY DOG...... with working potential regardless of showline or working line is to get it into your home and family at 8 weeks of age and shape & imprint its ability from day one..... Lastly the black hole of showlines as Randy puts it.... comes not because the "owner/breeder want to do the right thing" as he phrases it but because the focus is on breeding and showing the dog...NOT ON DEVELOPING THE DOG TO ITS WORKING POTENTIAL It is because of this focus on showing that the owner/breeder got a showline instead of a working line..... the breeding effort in this case is to breed dogs that can be shown not worked..... .... it is this dynamic that lies at the root of all the actions.... I have no problem with this dynamic.... but I do not delude myself or others with hyperbolic statements of great working ability.

It is sad to see this thread fizzle out because of all the negative comments. 
As I stated before, it is obvious that showline owners/breeders ARE interested in improving the working qualities of their dogs! Hence all the recent threads on just that!!! There ARE specific lines that carry AND produce very good working qualities!! Lonewolf + Randy bring up, as others have in the past, that raising and training a puppy for work from the beginning is part of the problem for consistent showline work production, as well as the continued training done correctly for the titles,and many other factors in the typical show breeder/owner's mindset.  Even in working lines it's hard to find good work focused homes for your progeny. Imagine that 100 X worse in finding the same for good working showlines!  The Truth is that some show lines ARE proponent for work and SHOULD be used for improving working qualities. There HAVE been and will be in the future, show dogs that are raised and trained correctly with the right background for work that will be National competitors!! Griff is one of the up and coming National competitors, Zambo is another, Theresa has high hopes for her dog. More could do it if they had been bred correctly and raised for it. But by all the negative, scoffing, and totally discouraging comments, you have effectively shut off this otherwise healthy and encouraging inquiry! Shame on you!
Show breeders: Don't let them discourage you! Continue your search and desire to improve your line's working qualities! I hope by doing this and encouraging others to do this that we will all see some good improvement in the showline work AND see more national competitors out there showing the nay sayer's that it has, can, and WILL be done! Can it completely be abolished? NO! But we all must try our best and by doing so, we can "work" circles around those showline breeders who don't care and hopefully embarrass them enough to change their minds also. Keep the faith, RESEARCH, TRAIN + COMPETE!
Debby
ps. I have both working and show lines and am in no way against working lines. I respect them both and strive to improve them both, as should everyone else.

Debby, I own and train show lines. And, I am an absolute advocate and supporter of others who do the same. Acknowledging the "challenges" that confront necessary temperament improvements should not be construed as negative but hopefully a call to action. You are obviously someone who cares and I appreciate that greatly. Best regards, Kevin Nance

I agree with djc's basic concept and what she calls for and salute her, I also agree to this:  Acknowledging the "challenges" that confront necessary temperament improvements should not be construed as negative but hopefully a call to action.

I started this thread based on that need.. to improve the temperament and working character of the SL dog as a member of the GSD BREED. 

Finding/discussing current studs that are SL and PASS ON good work ethic was the point.  That prepotency search is a lot easier done on a forum where lots of the participants have seen lots of dogs and those dog's offspring working!  

This is not about the working style of WL vs. SL  dogs but about what show line studs currently out there being studs have passed courage, nerve and good work ethic on to their offspring, often IN SPITE OF the bitch bred to.