Schutzhund and only schutzhund? - Page 1

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by workingdogz on 26 January 2012 - 01:01

This should be good

So, in browsing other forums during my downtime,
I have found many people who voice their utter disgust
for the sport of Schutzhund, and they denounce it as the
ruination of the breed and blame it for all that is wrong
with the breed these days. Which leads me to ask--

Where are all you people that DON'T do schutzhund
(or evidently any other internationally recognized activity with your dogs)
seeing all these "crappy weak schutzhund dogs"?

You know, the ones everyone says are just pattern trained
etc, the ones that only know how to bite the left arm of a padded sleeve?

We have travelled from east to west and north to south,
and I have to tell you, save for a couple of "show line oriented" clubs,
we saw "schutzhund" dogs being worked in muzzles, on suits, in the woods,
in the bleachers at a park etc. Tracking to find the helper, retrieves for bites etc etc.
Modifications of an object guard, civil scenarios etc.
Never did we see dogs only doing a "trial" routine at these clubs,
it was always a mix of things.

So, I am honestly curious, which clubs are you guys seeing this at?

I can only think of 2 clubs where the population was basically all showline dogs,
other than the helpers dogs, those clubs "stuck to the routine", and it showed.

And, the second part of the question, if schutzhund sucks,
why would you try to market your dogs/pups for sale as being
"sport prospects" etc?  I guess I am easily confused.

Chaz Reinhold

by Chaz Reinhold on 26 January 2012 - 02:01

If anyone has a problem with SchH, so be it, but I'll ask to see your dogs pedigree. "I have a real dog". Really? Its whole pedigree is full of fake SchH dogs. How did that happen?

Chaz Reinhold

by Chaz Reinhold on 26 January 2012 - 02:01

Police dogs/protection dogs, most come from SchH dogs. Who gives a shit? Because someone doesn't have the knowledge and is new to dogs doesn't make it an issue. Just smile and understand. It is no different than when a moron tells you they have a 120 lb female that goes back to Hitler's kennel.

Ace952

by Ace952 on 26 January 2012 - 05:01

Food topic workingdogz
Well said Chaz. 


I kknow some that do talk about how Sch has changed breeding and what not but they have years of experience with Sch and still will title a dog in the sport.  They can speak in depth about the good and bad.

Others though do exactly as you say workingdogz.  Funny though b/c they compalin a lot and talk bad about it but brag about the titled dogs in their dogs pedigree.  They also buy those "titled dogs" for their programs...lol  It is all marketing.  Also those people see 2 or 3 clubs or videos on the net and assume everything is that way.

GSDPACK

by GSDPACK on 26 January 2012 - 05:01

Chaz I think I just peed myslef a little!


Still laughing....



fozzie

by fozzie on 26 January 2012 - 12:01

Brilliant.  

You've hit the nail on the head with one of my big peevs over so called 'real dog' discussions on internet forums.

Most if not all of the people who have a problem with schutzhund have either never tried it or failed in it.

The videos below are of two titled Schutzhund 3 dogs, one of whom came 2nd in the UK national schutzhund championships, performing just as well in 'civil' training as they do in the 'routine'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfFnxJOVQYk&list=UU4pnBzx4OMAhkgjHmVRV4PQ&index=17&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cLLRTOd2YY&list=UU4pnBzx4OMAhkgjHmVRV4PQ&index=18&feature=plcp


Schutzhund judges and trainers are just as interested in seeing aggressive dominant dogs competing as any service or personal protection trainer (apart from the more showline oriented people as you mentioned).

What most people outside schutzhund don't understand is even though there isn't as much environmental pressure on a schutzhund dog compared to service/ring sport etc. (although saying that I think at the higher national/international competitions where the dogs perform in stadiums with big crowds there is a significant environmental pressure) the pressure to perform with the precision, speed and accuracy that is required as well as bite with real aggression from the heart is enormous.  Much higher than any other dog goes through.

I heard a story of a german SV judge visiting America and one bloke saying to him 'my young dog is a real hard dog.  He bites like a lion!'. The judge replied 'tell me in a years time after all the control and obedience has had to be put into him that he still bites like a lion...'.

Its easy to get a crazy scrap yard type dog to bite.  To get a dog thats under control, performs wonderful obedience, tracks well and protects is a level beyond the vast majority of trainers.

Hence why its easier for the vast majority of trainers to criticise!

by workingdogz on 26 January 2012 - 12:01

LOL @ Chaz
I only want to see the  "Hitler" female if she is bred to
a 27 times removed grandson of "Rin Tin Tin"

I brought this topic up for two reasons;
the first being the typical ranting of
"Schutzhund SUCKS, it has ruined the GSD",
and the other being;
"Oh those 'sport dogs' aren't 'for real',

If these dogs truly suck so badly, why do these same people
use grand parents & gr grandparents who have been
to the LGA's, BSP and/or WUSV etc to promote a breeding?

And, why would you then promote your progeny (if you are a breeder),
as being 'suitable for sport', and then also brag about offspring
doing "well" in it,  or achieving a BH, show rating etc?

I don't understand? Is it only good if it's "their" dogs then?
If thats the case, then it is crystal clear

Schutzhund has been and always will be what you make of it,
it has changed for the worse over the years, softer dogs do get titled yes,
but it is a starting place to evaluate a dog.

I know if we are looking at a breeding and the dam is SchH3-Kkl1/2,
that she has been worked/titled to an international standard,
and we can start asking around about what she is really like.
Find out trial scores, talk to helpers that have worked the dog etc.
We can't do this if the dog never leaves a backyard.

And yes Chaz & Ace, I always find it amusing when the
"FOR REAL" dogs are progeny of titled "sport dogs".

One last thing, if in fact Schutzhund is SO f*cking "easy",
then why aren't these keyboard experts out winning
the Regionals & Nationals? I mean, it's easy right?
So it's simple to me then, do your own helper work etc
and walk the line right to the podiums
Bring an SUV or van too, that way you can also take home
all the trophies etc.

Club trials are one thing, many times a judge is kinder/gentler
with newbies, softer dogs etc, but start prepping for bigger competiton,
and you better eat your wheaties and sharpen up your game.
You better also bring a pretty decent dog, or you are in for a big surprise!

The sport has it's flaws, it has it's downsides, but, it's about
all we got here to use as a tool.

Thats why it's so important to find breeders who DO
work & title their own dogs, they can tell you about them.
Most times, they will be pretty brutally honest about
pros/cons to their dog as well.

At least thats what we have found.

No matter what, we'll still do the sport,
we will still buy from breeders who train/title their own dogs
and will always recommend the same to anyone looking.
It's also good to know we are not the only ones that see this
the same way.

by workingdogz on 26 January 2012 - 12:01

Fozzie wrote:
"I heard a story of a german SV judge visiting America and one bloke saying to him 'my young dog is a real hard dog.  He bites like a lion!'. The judge replied 'tell me in a years time after all the control and obedience has had to be put into him that he still bites like a lion...'.

Its easy to get a crazy scrap yard type dog to bite.  To get a dog thats under control, performs wonderful obedience, tracks well and protects is a level beyond the vast majority of trainers."




Wow, , that sums it up JUST right!

I just don't know where all the clubs are that these experts are
going to that they only see trial routines done?

On any given training day at club, and private/semi private training,
we see muzzles, suits, hidden sleeves etc used.
H&B's are done in a group of passive people etc.
Obedience is done where ever, maybe on the field, maybe off.
Tracking is rarely ever if at all done to "trial specs".

So this is a big mystery to me, where are these
"Schutzhund Trial Routine ONLY"clubs?  

by justde on 26 January 2012 - 13:01

Schutzhund doesn't breed...breeders breed.  And those who don't use SchH, real herding, police, etc as a test, or say their dog is schutzhund trained but don't trial are fooling themselves.
Don't blame the sport.  And I think those who bash it don't want to/don't know how to train tracking.
 


fozzie

by fozzie on 26 January 2012 - 14:01

Workingdogz - Have you ever on your journeys through the monumental cess pool of stupidity that is 'working dog' type internet forums come across http://protectionk9.proboards.com/ ?  Its the UK's biggest protection dog forum but be advised - if you find these 'real dog' discussions funny then there is hours of entertainment just waiting to be laughed at - if you find them frustrating you'll experience sheer despair beyond your wildest nightmares...





 


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