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by VonIsengard on 19 March 2012 - 02:03
Case in point?
by clc29 on 19 March 2012 - 04:03
I debated about posting at all but in the end I couldn't help myself.......
I think all of you are missing the point (especially you Jeff) ........about what is ruining / weakening the breed......It's not the handlers male or female.....
It's sport and sport mentality in general....the father of the German Shepherd did not breed the German Shepherd for sport.....he bred him to work, to be part of the family and so much more.
Yet over the years his test to determine breed worthiness has been watered down and reconfigured for the sportsman, because the need for the true working dog has waned some what and the competitive nature of the human being is as strong as ever.....money talks.
If we are talking gender...look at the gender (majority) of the decision makers (SV, major Club officers and breed wardens) of the breed.....unfortunately it's still the good ol boy club......So who's making the decisions that effect the breed?
It's the breeders who breed dogs with temperament flaws and health issues and focus on bringing out one specific trait not an overall rounding and improvement of the pairing that are ruining the breed.
As for women handler's not being able to handle a strong dog.......who the hell wants to work with a dog that try's to come up the leash all of the time...not me....That's not to say I would not put a dog like that in it's place (Sorry I won't accept that kind of behavior). I wouldn't breed a dog like that either....To me it shows a character flaw......lack of trainability, and a possible danger to the handler and society.
I (and most people who want a practical application dog) want a dog that knows what a real bad guy is and will take appropriate action to protect his pack, yet will be gentle with a toddler....One that wants to please it's handler...not bite the hand that feeds him...one that can be trusted (temperament wise) in most environments not to break down.....and one that is physically and mentally able to handle what we ask of them.
Most dogs can be trained for sport......some better than others..... All it takes is patience, hard work and a butt load of repetition (the known environment). But what happens to those same dogs if we put them in an unknown environment? Will they remain constant or.........? I am not trying to demean the sport dog enthusiasts.....everyone has there thing......It's just that in order for the breed to regain some of it's credibility, we are going to have to try harder to once again breed the overall rounded GSD that Max first strived for and not focus so much on the sport arena.
This is all just my opinion for what it's worth.
Cheri
I think all of you are missing the point (especially you Jeff) ........about what is ruining / weakening the breed......It's not the handlers male or female.....
It's sport and sport mentality in general....the father of the German Shepherd did not breed the German Shepherd for sport.....he bred him to work, to be part of the family and so much more.
Yet over the years his test to determine breed worthiness has been watered down and reconfigured for the sportsman, because the need for the true working dog has waned some what and the competitive nature of the human being is as strong as ever.....money talks.
If we are talking gender...look at the gender (majority) of the decision makers (SV, major Club officers and breed wardens) of the breed.....unfortunately it's still the good ol boy club......So who's making the decisions that effect the breed?
It's the breeders who breed dogs with temperament flaws and health issues and focus on bringing out one specific trait not an overall rounding and improvement of the pairing that are ruining the breed.
As for women handler's not being able to handle a strong dog.......who the hell wants to work with a dog that try's to come up the leash all of the time...not me....That's not to say I would not put a dog like that in it's place (Sorry I won't accept that kind of behavior). I wouldn't breed a dog like that either....To me it shows a character flaw......lack of trainability, and a possible danger to the handler and society.
I (and most people who want a practical application dog) want a dog that knows what a real bad guy is and will take appropriate action to protect his pack, yet will be gentle with a toddler....One that wants to please it's handler...not bite the hand that feeds him...one that can be trusted (temperament wise) in most environments not to break down.....and one that is physically and mentally able to handle what we ask of them.
Most dogs can be trained for sport......some better than others..... All it takes is patience, hard work and a butt load of repetition (the known environment). But what happens to those same dogs if we put them in an unknown environment? Will they remain constant or.........? I am not trying to demean the sport dog enthusiasts.....everyone has there thing......It's just that in order for the breed to regain some of it's credibility, we are going to have to try harder to once again breed the overall rounded GSD that Max first strived for and not focus so much on the sport arena.
This is all just my opinion for what it's worth.
Cheri
by Slamdunc on 19 March 2012 - 04:03
It is the sport that is the problem, but the conformation side had nothing to do with it? I don't think the sport is to blame. Maybe less focus on running around in circles and looking pretty and a little more on balanced working ability. With out the "sport" dogs we would have none of the dogs you describe that you want. Most Police Dogs, Military working dogs, service dogs come from those "sport" lines.
by Jyl on 19 March 2012 - 04:03
clc29
Very nice post....and very well said.
Very nice post....and very well said.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 19 March 2012 - 05:03
Quote:
Thats what I am talking about ! Good for you !
Quote:
Not really what I was talking about, but that seems to be what everyone was thinking.
Quote:
Join USMRA and come and play with us. You will find it more fun than whatever you are talking about.
| I debated about posting at all but in the end I couldn't help myself....... |
Thats what I am talking about ! Good for you !
Quote:
| who the hell wants to work with a dog that try's to come up the leash all of the time. |
Not really what I was talking about, but that seems to be what everyone was thinking.
Quote:
| Most dogs can be trained for sport......some better than others..... All it takes is patience, hard work and a butt load of repetition (the known environment). |
Join USMRA and come and play with us. You will find it more fun than whatever you are talking about.
by SitasMom on 19 March 2012 - 13:03
off topic, but not really..... yesterday my husband made a statement that 90% of the people distracted while driving were women...... so, jokingly, I started pointing out the gender of each person driving while on a cell phone and the end count was 17 woman and 31 men....
back to topic, there are plenty of women that train dogs, many have strong dogs and many are competing at top levels. one's own preception, as in the example above, clouds our preception (and our memories).
by vomeisenhaus on 19 March 2012 - 15:03
I would like to comment on the strong dog/handler aggresive issue. First off if you raise a pup from 8weeks to 3yrs old and your dog is coming up the leash at you after a strong correction you probably should get out of dog training and find another venue. Most dogs that were handler aggresive that I've seen were bought after someone else trained them. Most I've seen were very good dogs with a lack of respect for their new handler and or not allowed suffiecient time for bonding before going out on the training field. Sometimes this isa time issue as someone wants to take this dog to the regionals & nationals when it might be best to wait till the following year....lol. Kurt
by clc29 on 19 March 2012 - 16:03
JC.Carroll......I apologize for taking your thread a bit off course and want to say that I agree with you. I think most female handlers/trainers are as capable as men when competing in the ring.
SlamDunc......I agree with you to some extent. However, (just curious) how many Police dogs have you tested that would do well as both a sport dog and a Police dog? You can PM me with your response so we don't drag this thread off of topic if you like.
Jeff....maybe you should explain what you think a strong dog to be since there seems to be so many different interpretations.
Jyl...Thank you for your kind reply.
I tried to edit my post after re-reading it because I can see where there could be some misinterpretation of the meaning I was trying to convey.
Let me clarify;
First, by sport I mean ALL sport venues to include conformation showing.
Second, by sport mentality I mean those breeders and competitors who focus on one trait (whether it's color, movement, confirmation or specific temperament/drive) that will get them the highest score, most respect and highest money, instead of looking at the whole picture.
For example.....I hear a lot of competitors bragging on the Bite..... but the dog did poorly in other areas.
Or
How well a dog moves in the ring.....but it's confirmation has been changed to an extreme in order to get that gait.
I could go on....... but these two examples seem to be the most talked about.
This is just a thought but.......Maybe the thread should have been called "Female Handlers Ruining the Competition", because I don't see how it is possible for only women to be ruining the breed.
Cheri
SlamDunc......I agree with you to some extent. However, (just curious) how many Police dogs have you tested that would do well as both a sport dog and a Police dog? You can PM me with your response so we don't drag this thread off of topic if you like.
Jeff....maybe you should explain what you think a strong dog to be since there seems to be so many different interpretations.
Jyl...Thank you for your kind reply.
I tried to edit my post after re-reading it because I can see where there could be some misinterpretation of the meaning I was trying to convey.
Let me clarify;
First, by sport I mean ALL sport venues to include conformation showing.
Second, by sport mentality I mean those breeders and competitors who focus on one trait (whether it's color, movement, confirmation or specific temperament/drive) that will get them the highest score, most respect and highest money, instead of looking at the whole picture.
For example.....I hear a lot of competitors bragging on the Bite..... but the dog did poorly in other areas.
Or
How well a dog moves in the ring.....but it's confirmation has been changed to an extreme in order to get that gait.
I could go on....... but these two examples seem to be the most talked about.
This is just a thought but.......Maybe the thread should have been called "Female Handlers Ruining the Competition", because I don't see how it is possible for only women to be ruining the breed.
Cheri
by Jeff Oehlsen on 19 March 2012 - 16:03
I just find it amusing that when you say a dog is very strong and will not work for females, the assumptions are that
1, the dog will try and bite them.
2, that they will be able to do something about a dog that is very serious.
This whole nightmare, typical of women..... ha ha ha ha ha has been taken out of context and blown all out of proportion. I cannot even remember the last time this sort of statement didn't cause outrage. However, if you go back and look at where I showed who was in the top ten, and I picked that one at random, It was all men.
However, you read this thread, and the other thread, and all women are way better at everything involving a dog........... that is until you ask for proof, or show otherwise, and they will ignore the facts and just go on with their outrage.
1, the dog will try and bite them.
2, that they will be able to do something about a dog that is very serious.
This whole nightmare, typical of women..... ha ha ha ha ha has been taken out of context and blown all out of proportion. I cannot even remember the last time this sort of statement didn't cause outrage. However, if you go back and look at where I showed who was in the top ten, and I picked that one at random, It was all men.
However, you read this thread, and the other thread, and all women are way better at everything involving a dog........... that is until you ask for proof, or show otherwise, and they will ignore the facts and just go on with their outrage.
by Bob McKown on 19 March 2012 - 17:03
I don,t thnk anyone said women are way better at handling dogs then men. I did say it doesn,t take testicles to handle good strong dogs. Blaming the down fall of a breed on a gender is ...well it,s out there. JMHO
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