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by Jeff Oehlsen on 19 March 2012 - 18:03
Quote:
Stop skimming then. It was said, implied and practically yelled.
When faced with the actual facts, that men are better handlers, they choose to ingnore them. Think about it, I randomly chose a final, and there were no women in the top ten. If I would have chosen one with one woman in it, then they would be jumping up and down saying that that one woman proved their point conclusively.
I am sure you have had the same argument with your wife, just a different subject matter. It is not a rare thing. HA HA HA HA
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I don,t thnk anyone said women are way better at handling dogs then men. |
Stop skimming then. It was said, implied and practically yelled.
When faced with the actual facts, that men are better handlers, they choose to ingnore them. Think about it, I randomly chose a final, and there were no women in the top ten. If I would have chosen one with one woman in it, then they would be jumping up and down saying that that one woman proved their point conclusively.
I am sure you have had the same argument with your wife, just a different subject matter. It is not a rare thing. HA HA HA HA
by Rass on 19 March 2012 - 18:03
The 2011 World Universal Seiger (Zambo) was won by a woman handler..... in fact, HOT...
by hexe on 19 March 2012 - 19:03
Jeff Oehlson wrote:
"I just find it amusing that when you say a dog is very strong and will not work for females, the assumptions are that
1, the dog will try and bite them.
2, that they will be able to do something about a dog that is very serious.
This whole nightmare, typical of women..... ha ha ha ha ha has been taken out of context and blown all out of proportion. I cannot even remember the last time this sort of statement didn't cause outrage."
Well, Jeff, again, it's time for you to be more clear if you don't think the responses to your [ludicrous] statement are addressing your claim in context. YOU were the one who stated that at some point, a "strong" dog was going to tell its handler, "Make me..."--so if you didn't mean that the dog was going to issue that challenge with aggression if the handler pressed the issue, exactly what DID you mean by that? Were you saying only that the dog was going to refuse to comply for that handler--which, BTW, doesn't mean the dog is "strong", it means the dog does not have the biddability the breed is supposed to have, presuming that the dog and handler have had sufficient time to develop a partnership. Stubbornness and laziness are NOT traits which are mentioned as desirable or even acceptable in the breed standard.
You keep coming back to the nebulous terms, ''strong" and "serious", but you have STILL failed to define these terms AS YOU SEE THEM--so how on earth could ANYBODY possibly hope to grasp your "context"???
I'll say this--your MOTHER was clearly one HELL of a strong woman to have dealt with your obnoxious, contrary, argumentative and inflammatory behind for the years it took to raise you. If she could make it through that, I'm thinking she could probably figure out a way to outsmart the strongest, most serious dog you could identify, too. Clearly, you weren't raised by wolves, or any other social species, or you'd be better behaved.
"However, if you go back and look at where I showed who was in the top ten, and I picked that one at random, It was all men."
"However, you read this thread, and the other thread, and all women are way better at everything involving a dog........... that is until you ask for proof, or show otherwise, and they will ignore the facts and just go on with their outrage."
While some may have said women are better handlers, and others might have even said women were better 'everything' when it came to dogs, that wasn't the topic under discussion. YOU said women handlers were making the breed 'weaker' because they couldn't/didn't want to handle "strong" dogs...but you can't back it up with proof. One German female handler semi-agreeing with you is not proof; it was her opinion, and she also neglected to factor in the changes in society in her own country with regard to dogs and aggression--it was the breed organizations in HER COUNTRY that started watering down the courage test, that began changing names of titles and excercises so no mention of "protection" or biting was whispered (the dog's don't bite the sleeve now, they "grip" it), after the public became so hysterical over some highly publicized attacks on children by poorly trained and managed pitbull-type dogs. The bitework portion of SchH has become an out and out obedience exercise, and a dog that truly wants to bring a real fight to the man is considered hectic--we're now supposed to work toward a dog that bites the sleeve with the same dedication as it 'bites' a dumbbell. Small wonder that the person wearing the sleeve is known as a 'helper' in SchH and not a decoy or an agitator...
Lots of things have played a role in the change in the aggression in the GSD, but I doubt you would find many in agreement with you that the decline of truly civil dogs is the fault of female handlers.
As to why your list of top ten were all men, that may well also have something to do with the fact that the male of the species, in general, tends to be more competitive than the females, with more of an innate need to 'prove' themselves against others. Most of the top sled dog drivers are males as well, but guess who does most of the foundation work to get young dogs ready to move up into the top tier competition teams? It's the female drivers, who primarily prefer to work the teams for the sheer love of watching the young dogs develop and seeing them learn from the veteran dogs that have been retired, and the peace that's there when you're riding behind 6 or 8 or 10 dogs pulling in unison, all silence save for the sound of the dogs' breathing and the soft thud of their paws on the snow or the dirt...
"I just find it amusing that when you say a dog is very strong and will not work for females, the assumptions are that
1, the dog will try and bite them.
2, that they will be able to do something about a dog that is very serious.
This whole nightmare, typical of women..... ha ha ha ha ha has been taken out of context and blown all out of proportion. I cannot even remember the last time this sort of statement didn't cause outrage."
Well, Jeff, again, it's time for you to be more clear if you don't think the responses to your [ludicrous] statement are addressing your claim in context. YOU were the one who stated that at some point, a "strong" dog was going to tell its handler, "Make me..."--so if you didn't mean that the dog was going to issue that challenge with aggression if the handler pressed the issue, exactly what DID you mean by that? Were you saying only that the dog was going to refuse to comply for that handler--which, BTW, doesn't mean the dog is "strong", it means the dog does not have the biddability the breed is supposed to have, presuming that the dog and handler have had sufficient time to develop a partnership. Stubbornness and laziness are NOT traits which are mentioned as desirable or even acceptable in the breed standard.
You keep coming back to the nebulous terms, ''strong" and "serious", but you have STILL failed to define these terms AS YOU SEE THEM--so how on earth could ANYBODY possibly hope to grasp your "context"???
I'll say this--your MOTHER was clearly one HELL of a strong woman to have dealt with your obnoxious, contrary, argumentative and inflammatory behind for the years it took to raise you. If she could make it through that, I'm thinking she could probably figure out a way to outsmart the strongest, most serious dog you could identify, too. Clearly, you weren't raised by wolves, or any other social species, or you'd be better behaved.
"However, if you go back and look at where I showed who was in the top ten, and I picked that one at random, It was all men."
"However, you read this thread, and the other thread, and all women are way better at everything involving a dog........... that is until you ask for proof, or show otherwise, and they will ignore the facts and just go on with their outrage."
While some may have said women are better handlers, and others might have even said women were better 'everything' when it came to dogs, that wasn't the topic under discussion. YOU said women handlers were making the breed 'weaker' because they couldn't/didn't want to handle "strong" dogs...but you can't back it up with proof. One German female handler semi-agreeing with you is not proof; it was her opinion, and she also neglected to factor in the changes in society in her own country with regard to dogs and aggression--it was the breed organizations in HER COUNTRY that started watering down the courage test, that began changing names of titles and excercises so no mention of "protection" or biting was whispered (the dog's don't bite the sleeve now, they "grip" it), after the public became so hysterical over some highly publicized attacks on children by poorly trained and managed pitbull-type dogs. The bitework portion of SchH has become an out and out obedience exercise, and a dog that truly wants to bring a real fight to the man is considered hectic--we're now supposed to work toward a dog that bites the sleeve with the same dedication as it 'bites' a dumbbell. Small wonder that the person wearing the sleeve is known as a 'helper' in SchH and not a decoy or an agitator...
Lots of things have played a role in the change in the aggression in the GSD, but I doubt you would find many in agreement with you that the decline of truly civil dogs is the fault of female handlers.
As to why your list of top ten were all men, that may well also have something to do with the fact that the male of the species, in general, tends to be more competitive than the females, with more of an innate need to 'prove' themselves against others. Most of the top sled dog drivers are males as well, but guess who does most of the foundation work to get young dogs ready to move up into the top tier competition teams? It's the female drivers, who primarily prefer to work the teams for the sheer love of watching the young dogs develop and seeing them learn from the veteran dogs that have been retired, and the peace that's there when you're riding behind 6 or 8 or 10 dogs pulling in unison, all silence save for the sound of the dogs' breathing and the soft thud of their paws on the snow or the dirt...
by susie on 19 March 2012 - 20:03
To J.C.:
Quote:
Females do not make weak dogs look strong. Weak dogs are weak, strong dogs are strong. You can try and cover that with training, but at the end of the day the gender, skin colour, height or hair of the handler is irrelevant. <><> I am quite sure no one would be willing to say that at a club meeting, or make an announcement at the show saying females are ruining the breed. Not unless he wanted to be castrated before he made it to the parkinglot... Then the question we'd be asking on PDB would be "are eunuch handlers ruining the breed?"
I still think this is a very interesting topic. For sure women didn´t ruin the breed, but after all I´m convinced at least they changed the breed.
Useless to say that there are A LOT of different factors for the change of the German Shepherd (the worst thing in my opinion was the participation into the two different lines - working/showline in the late 70s - thank you Mr and Mr Martin) but after all at the end the breeder breeds what the buyer wants...
You said: Females do not make weak dogs look strong...
You are right, a really weak dog will never look strong on a higher level ( on a club level with my helper on the own training field mostly no problem ), but a "normal" dog will! Not in the age of 2, but in the age of 4 or 5, if he was trained well. Now there is the difference between men and women ( I know-not all of them...there are always exceptions). A man will sell this dog in the age of 2 or 2,5 because he is disappointed; most men don´t forgive faults of their dog, they feel blamed, women stick with their dog and train. At the end this "normal" dog may become participant of the Bundessiegerprüfung ( Sorry, I´m German ), achieving a high SG or lower V rating, he is KKL 1, and he will be bred, because he is "a strong dog" (happens more often than you may believe).
Another difference-most of the women raise their dogs by themselves, most of the men buy dogs in the age of 8 months up to 2 years, if they want to do dogsport on a higher level. Men are not good in raising puppies - they are too dominant. A lot of the so called "strong" dogs bought by men were raised in pet-families, and the owners had to sell them because of Alpha behaviour of their "puppy".
Another point I really don´t understand -and this seems to be a problem of the United States-you breed dogs because they are therapy-, agility-, or SAR dogs, and the breeder say (mostly women) that these dogs are working dogs. These dogs ARE working dogs, but NOT in the world of the German Shepherd. I know that Schutzhund trials and Koerung are not the best selection for a breeding dog, but at least much better than nothing. SAR, Therapy, Agility, and so on, are worthless in the decision, if a German Shepherd is breedworthy or not. More than 80 % of the SAR/therapy/agility handlers are women, and these women breed their dogs.
On the other hand, some of the best trainer I know are women. These women ( and the few smart men ) changed the training methods - less drill - more positiv thinking. These women are not afraid of "strong" dogs, but they don´t need strong dogs to be successful.
But why think about all of it - people always have a choice to decide what they want - and most of the people want a Labrador looking like a German Shepherd. They don´t want a dog that acts like a real German Shepherd. A German Shepherd, bred to defend his home and family, doesn´t know, that the 12 year old kid, that climbs the fence to get its ball, is not a danger. A self confident young German Shepherd can´t stay alone with moms 8 year old kid...and so on...
And for the "real" working dog people - there are still good dogs out there - but after all a dog only can be as good as its handler...
(Hope you were able to understand my point of view - I need a dictionary)
Susie
Quote:
Females do not make weak dogs look strong. Weak dogs are weak, strong dogs are strong. You can try and cover that with training, but at the end of the day the gender, skin colour, height or hair of the handler is irrelevant. <><> I am quite sure no one would be willing to say that at a club meeting, or make an announcement at the show saying females are ruining the breed. Not unless he wanted to be castrated before he made it to the parkinglot... Then the question we'd be asking on PDB would be "are eunuch handlers ruining the breed?"
I still think this is a very interesting topic. For sure women didn´t ruin the breed, but after all I´m convinced at least they changed the breed.
Useless to say that there are A LOT of different factors for the change of the German Shepherd (the worst thing in my opinion was the participation into the two different lines - working/showline in the late 70s - thank you Mr and Mr Martin) but after all at the end the breeder breeds what the buyer wants...
You said: Females do not make weak dogs look strong...
You are right, a really weak dog will never look strong on a higher level ( on a club level with my helper on the own training field mostly no problem ), but a "normal" dog will! Not in the age of 2, but in the age of 4 or 5, if he was trained well. Now there is the difference between men and women ( I know-not all of them...there are always exceptions). A man will sell this dog in the age of 2 or 2,5 because he is disappointed; most men don´t forgive faults of their dog, they feel blamed, women stick with their dog and train. At the end this "normal" dog may become participant of the Bundessiegerprüfung ( Sorry, I´m German ), achieving a high SG or lower V rating, he is KKL 1, and he will be bred, because he is "a strong dog" (happens more often than you may believe).
Another difference-most of the women raise their dogs by themselves, most of the men buy dogs in the age of 8 months up to 2 years, if they want to do dogsport on a higher level. Men are not good in raising puppies - they are too dominant. A lot of the so called "strong" dogs bought by men were raised in pet-families, and the owners had to sell them because of Alpha behaviour of their "puppy".
Another point I really don´t understand -and this seems to be a problem of the United States-you breed dogs because they are therapy-, agility-, or SAR dogs, and the breeder say (mostly women) that these dogs are working dogs. These dogs ARE working dogs, but NOT in the world of the German Shepherd. I know that Schutzhund trials and Koerung are not the best selection for a breeding dog, but at least much better than nothing. SAR, Therapy, Agility, and so on, are worthless in the decision, if a German Shepherd is breedworthy or not. More than 80 % of the SAR/therapy/agility handlers are women, and these women breed their dogs.
On the other hand, some of the best trainer I know are women. These women ( and the few smart men ) changed the training methods - less drill - more positiv thinking. These women are not afraid of "strong" dogs, but they don´t need strong dogs to be successful.
But why think about all of it - people always have a choice to decide what they want - and most of the people want a Labrador looking like a German Shepherd. They don´t want a dog that acts like a real German Shepherd. A German Shepherd, bred to defend his home and family, doesn´t know, that the 12 year old kid, that climbs the fence to get its ball, is not a danger. A self confident young German Shepherd can´t stay alone with moms 8 year old kid...and so on...
And for the "real" working dog people - there are still good dogs out there - but after all a dog only can be as good as its handler...
(Hope you were able to understand my point of view - I need a dictionary)
Susie
by vomeisenhaus on 19 March 2012 - 22:03
Good post susie....
by jc.carroll on 20 March 2012 - 02:03
I have no doubt women have changed the breed. Most of the breeders I meet, in any venue, of any breed, are women. Or I see a husband-wife team working together to produce a common goal. I am not going to offer speculation as to how the breed has changed with a shift in gender equality. I do agree though, that women generally are more apt to see a single dog from start to finish. I have also noticed that, when I teach group training, the women are better at praise, and the men are better at corrections. I have to coach the men to be more rewarding when the dog performs well, and many women I have to push them to sound sever with their admonishing. Men have deeper voices, which lead towards a more strong tone, and women tend to have a higher one which leads better towards praise. --- To say a woman can't handle a hard dog is like saying a man can't handle a sensitive dog. Note that sensitive does not mean soft: it means the degree of responsiveness to the handler. A sensitive dog is in tune with his handler's mood, and tends to have a degree of almost intuitive responsiveness. A hard dog, she will be more intent on doing her own thing unless there is a good reason (coercion, bribery) not to; and is more apt to resent any handler-directed "intrusion" on her own agenda. --- PROPER temperament is NOT a dog who willy-nilly comes back up the leash. As I recall, overly aggressive is a fault in the standard; and indicates a lack of clarity in the head.
by VonIsengard on 20 March 2012 - 15:03
I think people are pointing out the positive attributes common in female trainers/handlers that help us offset the fact that we have less physical strength. There are pros and cons, talented people and untalented people, in both genders.
by 4pack on 20 March 2012 - 17:03
I don't think checking a random top 10 can say much about which sex has more success. You would have to count male and female competitors and find the % ratio. Men do seem to compete more than females, do to being competetive and or ego. Many woman just want to be around dogs and work them not caring if they ever see a trophy.
I know I trained for fun and to see my dogs do what they were bred to do. I have a life after dogs and am not even close to being caught up in the sport to the point that I am shopping for cars, houses or equipment to fit dogs like many do. I'm not coockoo for coacoa puffs where my dogs are concerned. I'm not covered in dog hair and neither is my furniture, my dogs sleep in a kennel not in my bed. I bought a top safety pick car to keep my kids alive in a crash and save my husband fuel on his commute. Good bye is the huge SUV I had bought for driving Daycare kids around but worked wonderfully for crates and dogs. Can't fit a single crate or dog in my car anymore, so I don't train. Looking for a bigger house, for my growing family, not the dog, though he will bennefit from a bigger yard and the possibility that I can raise my own RAW. I have whelped 2 kids in the last 2 years, so is it any wonder I'm not willing to drive 100 miles to train? I don't have the time or the care. It's dogs and a sport, not life or life changing. Maybe one day I will have time or the want to again, maybe not. Either way, I don't care. I'm not bitter that my dog didn't title in my prefered sport. We had fun when we were out there and I still have one heck of a dog in my backyard.
Not everyone has the same goal or expectations in dogs or in life but I hardly think female handlers could change the breed. Only the people pumping out puppies "breeders" are in control of what they put out there to buyers. That they are tailering their programs for female handlers, seems a bit far fetched for me.
Susie's posts about women dosn't represent me at all. I have sent back or sold 3 out of my last 4 pups because they weren't for me. Also as above, my dogs don't live on my bed, they are not replacements for real children. I only require that they not chew fingers off if placed inside the kennel. I don't require a dog that wont knock a kid over in excitement or indifference, that is what the kennels are for, so seperate the kids and dogs. Never had an accident in 7 years of running a Daycare around my various dogs. I love my dogs, I personally wouldn't keep a dog that seemed to want to eat a kid but have never had one that did. I work my dogs, but they are in the end, just dogs. I don't humanize them, I don't make excuses for the weak ones and I don't have the patience or the want, to cover up flaws with training when better, stronger dogs are out there. I dont breed because I haven't found a pair worthy. Others will say the female doesn't need to be titled, "it's a waste of time" and they will go ahead and breed a dog who they admit has issues and hope the pups don't take on those issues. Sorry, not my cup-o-tea. I don't want shitters nor would I want to be known for selling them. Some will say well that is what culling is about, yet they haven't put a pup in a bucket yet, they have their shitters for sale, probably to female handlers. Now they want to blame females handlers instead of themselves.
I know I trained for fun and to see my dogs do what they were bred to do. I have a life after dogs and am not even close to being caught up in the sport to the point that I am shopping for cars, houses or equipment to fit dogs like many do. I'm not coockoo for coacoa puffs where my dogs are concerned. I'm not covered in dog hair and neither is my furniture, my dogs sleep in a kennel not in my bed. I bought a top safety pick car to keep my kids alive in a crash and save my husband fuel on his commute. Good bye is the huge SUV I had bought for driving Daycare kids around but worked wonderfully for crates and dogs. Can't fit a single crate or dog in my car anymore, so I don't train. Looking for a bigger house, for my growing family, not the dog, though he will bennefit from a bigger yard and the possibility that I can raise my own RAW. I have whelped 2 kids in the last 2 years, so is it any wonder I'm not willing to drive 100 miles to train? I don't have the time or the care. It's dogs and a sport, not life or life changing. Maybe one day I will have time or the want to again, maybe not. Either way, I don't care. I'm not bitter that my dog didn't title in my prefered sport. We had fun when we were out there and I still have one heck of a dog in my backyard.
Not everyone has the same goal or expectations in dogs or in life but I hardly think female handlers could change the breed. Only the people pumping out puppies "breeders" are in control of what they put out there to buyers. That they are tailering their programs for female handlers, seems a bit far fetched for me.
Susie's posts about women dosn't represent me at all. I have sent back or sold 3 out of my last 4 pups because they weren't for me. Also as above, my dogs don't live on my bed, they are not replacements for real children. I only require that they not chew fingers off if placed inside the kennel. I don't require a dog that wont knock a kid over in excitement or indifference, that is what the kennels are for, so seperate the kids and dogs. Never had an accident in 7 years of running a Daycare around my various dogs. I love my dogs, I personally wouldn't keep a dog that seemed to want to eat a kid but have never had one that did. I work my dogs, but they are in the end, just dogs. I don't humanize them, I don't make excuses for the weak ones and I don't have the patience or the want, to cover up flaws with training when better, stronger dogs are out there. I dont breed because I haven't found a pair worthy. Others will say the female doesn't need to be titled, "it's a waste of time" and they will go ahead and breed a dog who they admit has issues and hope the pups don't take on those issues. Sorry, not my cup-o-tea. I don't want shitters nor would I want to be known for selling them. Some will say well that is what culling is about, yet they haven't put a pup in a bucket yet, they have their shitters for sale, probably to female handlers. Now they want to blame females handlers instead of themselves.
by Blitzen on 20 March 2012 - 17:03
Hi 4pack....how you doing, girl?
I think you have your head on straight and your priorities right. You are a good parent. When my kids were young, the dogs were not number one in the family. Now that the kids are grown and gone, I only have one dog at a time and that dog does get to live inside and sleep on the bed. You may not get to that point with a dog, but odds are when the nest is empty there will be a dog sleeping inside the house if not on the bed LOL.
Hope all is well...............
I think you have your head on straight and your priorities right. You are a good parent. When my kids were young, the dogs were not number one in the family. Now that the kids are grown and gone, I only have one dog at a time and that dog does get to live inside and sleep on the bed. You may not get to that point with a dog, but odds are when the nest is empty there will be a dog sleeping inside the house if not on the bed LOL.
Hope all is well...............
by 4pack on 20 March 2012 - 18:03
I grew up with no dogs allowed in the house. I'd try to sneak my dog in my room as a kid or let her in when mom wasn't home. As an adult I get that the hair is a PITA and doggy smell just isn't yummy. My husband has been bugging me for an indoor small dog for a few years. I gave in on the cat thing and the damn cat sheds like hell too.
I do make exceptions to my own rules. If I just gave my dog a bath and I want to hang with him for the day or it is going to be over 100 I let him in. Also my older dogs get to live inside at the end and any dog that is sick I bring in so I can keep a closer eye on them. Back when I actually had a pack of 4, my Tricky got astiosarcoma. I declined putting him through an amputation knowing the odds that it had spread elsewhere already was very high. I chose to treat him with pain meds until those couldn't provide him with a good quality of life. He spent his last month inside the house and in the car wherever I went because he was a dog that wanted to be close to me 24/7. His last pictures were of him laying sprawled on my bed. My Baden doesn't sit next to me for more than a few seconds, he is very independant, not a clingy or attention hogging dog at all. He seems to be bothered by a pat on the head 9 out of 10 times and would rather just be rewarded with a ball or tug, something he can sink his teeth into. No hugs here please. LOL
Nice seeing you post here again Blitzen.
I do make exceptions to my own rules. If I just gave my dog a bath and I want to hang with him for the day or it is going to be over 100 I let him in. Also my older dogs get to live inside at the end and any dog that is sick I bring in so I can keep a closer eye on them. Back when I actually had a pack of 4, my Tricky got astiosarcoma. I declined putting him through an amputation knowing the odds that it had spread elsewhere already was very high. I chose to treat him with pain meds until those couldn't provide him with a good quality of life. He spent his last month inside the house and in the car wherever I went because he was a dog that wanted to be close to me 24/7. His last pictures were of him laying sprawled on my bed. My Baden doesn't sit next to me for more than a few seconds, he is very independant, not a clingy or attention hogging dog at all. He seems to be bothered by a pat on the head 9 out of 10 times and would rather just be rewarded with a ball or tug, something he can sink his teeth into. No hugs here please. LOL
Nice seeing you post here again Blitzen.
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