Epilepsy from German bred sires - Page 2

I'm sorry, thats: www.canine-genetics.com

I hope you can receive a correct diagnosis soon. Phenobarbital is a learning prohibitor. I know this because my brother was on it for years with dilatin. He would just go to sleep for days or weeks, was very scary for my parents. the medical community called everthing back then Epilepsy. He would be riding a bike and just go down.

Hi thanks for your comments so far. Regardsing diagnosis My pup has been seen by the neuro specialist at the Royal Vet College & epilepsy is listed as one of 4 possible cause on her discharge papers. She has had many petit mals seizures (head nodding , etc several times every day until phenobarbital was started) and one full blown fit. If all of this was caused by her not being given enough to do I would be surprized as I have previously owned a dominanat bitch from a working line who was very active but the best dog I have ever lived with & exhibited none of these problems. If a dog needs to work to such an extent that it is going kennel crazy then why do breeders perpetuate the use of such line sif they are not going to sell the dog to a working home? It's cruel for all concerned especially the dog. I know that we can't eradicate all problems in GSD & God knows there are enough, but I posed the initial question because I know the problem is out there & the important thing is to find out what stud dogs may carry it, not to black list them, but to be careful using them to a bitch who may also have epilepsy cases on her lines. If you do combine the lines & you hear of a resulting case then you can assume it was inherited & not a case of the pup being dropped on it's head. Blitzen says that this disease is being seen in increasingly younger dogs & the same is true of CDRM a disease that used to be associate dwith old age. My Dexter & his brother & sister were all dead at 9yrs because of DM, symptoms started to show at just 7yrs. What good is that, or epilepsy in a working dog? Blitzen is right that epilepsy is not a nice disease to live with, although most pet owners try. It's easier for breeders who will often just put the dogs to sleep. We have had to travel a quater of the way across England several times for referral vets & spent in excess of £2,000 so far. I hope carriers can be identified so others can be spared the incovenience and expense. More comments appreciated!!

I agree with one of the posts above that many of the signs listed by the original poster do suggest something else beside epilepsy. There may be a seizure disorder, but it may be confounded by behavioral problems as well. I also want to point out that there are MANY reasons for any animal, human or canine, to have seizures. In fact, there may be some genetic fault, but often it is a developmental fault somewhere in the brain. As well, there are many subtle and not so subtle metabolic probelms and even diseases that can cause seizures. Finally, a head injury during birth or afterwards and often very subtle, can also result in seizures. The problem with lay people doing bloodline research is that they are not trained to do unbiased research. When one looks only for specific answers, one often misses the real issues. Epilepsy is not uncommon among dogs of all breeds. Running a boarding kennel I see all kinds of breeds here who have seizures. Fortunately, most are easily managed. Yes, I have seen it in GSDs, of all bloodlines, too. In my years of doing GSD rescue, I have seem more than 600 GSDs at this point - all bloodlines, and a few had seizure problems. As I have pointed out before, if we tried to apply the same standards that people are trying to apply to dogs, the human race would have become extinct. We are doing more and more to, in fact, limit the gene pool, and that is of serious concern. Some dogs are going to have injuries. Some dogs are going to end up with pannus, some with cancers (some of which we are learning in humans are caused by viruses) and some are going to have seizures and others joint problems. Where we can definitively say that a given dog clearly passes on a particular disease or poor hips etc., as we can with a very few diseases, then yes, we should all want to know about it and that dog should not be used to breed. Suggesting that a particular medical issue is beginning to show up in younger dogs may or may not be accurate. Just as with many human conditions, we now know more. We now look harder, and above all else, there are more ways to disseminate information, whether it be correct or incorrect. A lot of what we think we see is, in fact, simply artifact and it was there all along, but we did not know or notice it. However, as has also been pointed our before, often there are medical issues that arise long after the dog has been used in breeding and which are likely part of the normal range of aging conditions for a given species. There is great potential for misinformation and harm in people simply deciding that any given dog is responsible for passing down most of the conditions talked about on this and other sites.

HI Everyone We have a foundation here in the UK called the Phylis Croft Foundation, where the Vet it is named after has checked and done the EEG tests on many of the dogs named. Correct research is being carried out with the RVC and this particular Foundation, in turn we are all working along withthe Waltham Foundation/ AHT and the KC who pass people with problems onto myself for pedigree research. Here in the UK and I think it is really also unfortunately across the world, some breeders do not do health checks and will swear they have never had a problem with many of the health set backs we cover. Many are of the opinion that if it is not on the pedigree it can never happen. Some Obedience supporters used a particular line and 9 litters came up with the following and it was not because they were badly reared. EPI/ Epilepsy (then lines causing this were off the pedigree.)A/F which the research is turning towards after DNA etc, that many have the problem but STRESS can cause the problem to kick into action. We are still striving to find a solution and have come forward in leaps and bounds. Money for research is coming in and this is always most welcome. I think the vast majority of people are concerned and education may be the answer to assiting in many of the problems. More pedigrees are being sent to us for checking. All should admit to the problems if they have them this is one of the trials of breeding but to repeat knowing it exists is to mosts mind in-excusable. We have a Seminar coming up in the New Year ay last I hear some of you say, limited to the first 50 applicants, where the updates on the research will be discussed and help asked for. So please breeders in the UK support this we could be at the foot of the mountain now but with support we could soon be at the top with a spolution. Superdog

So Hodie, are you suggesting that we abolish Hip scoring & use sires that are haemophilia positive as well? I think not. I posed my question to see if there are any other cases that could link with her breeding, if several close relatives turn up that also suffering fits can we assume that they were all dropped on the head as pups? Again, I think not. Surely breeders should always strive for the best when breeding & if I were to breed a litter (which I can't now because of my pups problems, even though her breeders have used her sire several times more since I told them of her problems & the fact that the vet thought it may be the inherited type of epilepsy) then I would avoid any dog that I knew of suspected to have be passing on health or behaviour problems & if I could not find such a stud dog I would move to another breed or give up. I'm sorry if I offend you but I disagree with your comments, when it comes to breeding we should accept nothing but the best, complacency is what spells disaster & leads to a narrowing of the gene pool by perpetuating ill health & shortening life spans. I'm sure my pups breeder & the owner of the stud concerned will be just as keen to point out the obvious to me, telling me that no other pups in her litter have any problems at all ever in their lives, that i've done this & that wrong, dropped her on the head, etc. Just as they told me about their wonderful kennel average reagrding HD& the fact that there were not any hip problems on her line, then I found out two bitches were not scored at all (wonder why!!) and the litter sister they run on & had screened was sold straight after, again I wonder why. I've heard it all before, it's never the breeders fault is it?

To Hodie again, I think I understand the reason for your views. Say no More!!

Maybe the current research will give us a better insight into this horrible disease. I'd urge any with GSD's diagnosed with epilepsy to participate in one of the current studies. The Canine Health Foundation sponsored study is looking for cheek swabs on known epileptics and their immediate families. I believe Dr. Jean Dodd is also conducting a study looking at the possibility of a relationship between seizures and vaccinations. I'm not sure what she needs for her study, but it's probably on her internet site.

LilyDexter, Of course, I am not suggesting we abolish any sort of hip scoring that has merit nor breed dogs who are VWB positive. Nothing in my post suggests that and for you to take that from my post is ridiculous. My point is that there are MANY causes of epilepsy and that to jump to conclusions about the cause of epilepsy or any health problem does, in fact, confound the chances of ever really finding out the cause and possible solutions. One of the problems with epilepsy is that we often can NOT pinpoint the problem at all and that is why it is called "idiopathic". There are some who would like to blame vaccines for everything under the sun....and that too is ridiculous. The fact is some of you want living creatures to be perfect. While I understand that, it simply is not true of any living creature, dogs and humans included. If you or someone else can say a given dog produced x number of puppies and a large percentage of them have x problem, then that is fine and where valid systems exist to study and identify those dogs with problems, great. But all too often there is no science to it and the data is of little value if it is not collected and analzyed in a proper manner. It is sad when one buys a dog and the dog early on develops health issues. As for why you chose the breeder you did who you intimate was untruthful with you, all I can say is apparently you did not do your homework. The fact of the matter is that sometimes things happen in life and it is NO ONES fault, regardless of the trouble involved. When it is your pup, or your child who has some sort of problem, of course I understand how one wants to pinpoint a cause and assign blame. Again, my point is that in breeding live creatures we often have no clue what medical problems lie ahead. For example, someone might have crippling rheumatoid arthritis. If they have this as a young woman, should they have children? A dog might have hip dysplasia as a young dog. Should that dog be bred? Of course, with the dog it is easy for us to say no it should not be bred. But what about situations where problems do not show up until much later in life? Lets say a dog has good hips but develops arthritis later. Should it have been bred? Dogs, like humans, often develop epilepsy later in life. And no cause can be found. Rarely, others develop it much earlier. As for your understanding my views, apparently you do not. If you knew me you would know that I am one who will take breeders to task when they really are unethical. Breeders not being honest with buyers is a problem. People who know I am involved in the breed and in GSD rescue often consult me when such issues arise. There are many breeders where I live who do not like me because I have taken them to task for being dishonest, for caring only about the money, for breeding litter after litter after litter, for selling dogs to people who should not have dogs (let alone GSDs), for breeding dogs with KNOWN and serious health problems etc. Blitzen and others on this board know how hard I am on people who are unethical. I have some fine dogs, but I rarely breed and I still own all but two dogs of the two litters I did breed. I bred a wonderful female, a SchH 3, excellent working dog to two different males. She produced weak ears in the pups both times. I never sold the pups and will never breed her again because of that, despite spending thousands of hours on her training and showing.

I wonder why, when you do not know me either, Hodie, you seem so adamant that it is me that is at fault here? It's true that I didn't do my homework when I bought the pup, as we were mourning the loss of two wonderful companions but couldn't bear to be without a GSD around. The breeders are Ch. show judges & very well known in the breed so I trusted them, most of their stock is sold locally & I have heard many stories about problems with their stock. So I will take all the blame for what is wrong with my pup, have her put to sleep & then nobody need spare epilepsy another thought. If only it were so simple. Thank you, everyone for your comments & good luck with your Shepherds.