12 y/o with Pyo - Page 2

$2500 for a SPAY? Of course she needs antibiotics asap to start fighting the infection, but she still needs a spay. What is wrong with vets now? Don't you have a university anywhere near you? How about CareCredit? That vet is insane to think a few antibiotics and she'll be good as new. I wouldn't trust her to feed my goldfish, let alone perform a pyo spay, regardless of how "nice" she is. I know you like road trips; shop around to get her the competent care she needs.

Well, for all those who've said they've never known a dog with pyo to have it successfully treated with antibiotics, I hope I can ease Dawulf's mind a bit--I've known several of them.  If it were a closed pyo, then yes, it's either spay or say goodbye, but with an open pyo and caught early enough, treatment has a decent success rate.  I don't know how quickly I'd want to put a 12 year old dog with liver issues and mammary masses under general anesthesia--I damn well would NOT agree to surgery without having chest films done first, that's for damn sure.   Most folks don't hear too much about treated pyos because in most cases, the owner opts to spay the dog if she wasn't intended as breeding stock anyway; but bitches that ARE intended as breeding animals can and are treated, and it's rare that they have recurrences.

It sounds like Jewel's condition was caught early, based on your description of how she greeted you Saturday, so hopefully she was not systemically septic, as that will make it easier for the treatment to do its work.

I wouldn't rush to condemn the vet for the surgery estimate--first off, did anyone actually SEE a printed estimate, to see what was being proposed as far as the surgery was concerned? It may well be that the price was for not only the emegency spay of an infected uterus, but also for removal of the masses or possibly even for removal of one or both mammary chains--I doubt it would be for JUST an emergency spay of a pyo uterus.  If that IS a quote for just the spay, then there's GOT to be other clinics in the area which are more reasonable with their fees.  This isn't a Banfield clinic, is it?  I've got nothing against the vets who work at the Banfield chain clinics, but I know from experience that they WAAAAY overcharge for things--a simple biopsy that cost me $80 with my vet for my dog, cost someone else almost double for their dog @ the Banfield clinic they use.  I know a lot of people use it because they have hours 7 days a week, and have extended-hours appointments in the evenings, but they're still overpriced, and the vets are paid a base salary and then have to make up the rest of their income from percentages on services & products they're able to sell or book.

Why does Jewel ring a bell to me?  Dawulf, am I remembering correctly, that a few years back you were having trouble getting your mom to take a skin condition, flea infestation and ear infection seriously and treat it? Hopefully the old girl's been doing well and your mom's kept ahead of the skin and flea and ear situation, so Jewel's been having a good life as a senior dog.

She'll be in my thoughts...

PLEASE LISTEN TO WHAT I HAVE TO SAY!!

My friend's bitch got pyo before she was a year old. She was treated successfully at Guelph University , but the treatment was pretty harsh. They give prostaglandins to make the uterus contract and expel the pus, as well as IV antibiotics. The prostaglandins also cause severe discomfort and nausea, as anyone whose had this treatment to induce labour will tell you. They also told her: THIS TENDS TO COME BACK...You MUST breed on the next heat!

Well, she did concieve on the next heat. and was on very expensive antibiotics (baytril) throughout her pregnancy, and delivered a healthy litter of 7 pups. The following year, rinse, lather, repeat. TEN pups this time! Great!

The next time, the owner decided to see if she could whelp WITHOUT the expense of antibiotics. About 10 days away from her due date, she began leaking blackish fluid from her vulva. Her uterus was full of infection, and she had to have an emergency spay.

The vet is doing the right thing. Due to the risk of infection spreading from the swollen uterus to the abdominal cavity during spaying, your dog should be on antibiotics before the surgery. And yes, $2,500 for a spay is robbery.

BUT BUT BUT!!!! DON'T go too cheap, either!

For 2 years, I lived in a small town in N. Ontario. When I had my female spayed due to hip dysplasia. the vet did not put her on intravenous during the surgery, and damn near killed her A nursing friend explained that without IV fluids, the blood pressure drops during surgery, and the vet thinks he has all the blood vessels tied off. Then, as the animal recovers from anesthetic, and the BP returns to normal, the severed vessels begin to bleed. THIS CAN BE FATAL!

This same vet operated on the elderly bitch of a friend, and it BLED TO DEATH after the surgery. When I took him to task for not giving IV fluids, he said his clients wouldn't be able to afford surgery if he did that every time he operated!

Heck, when I lived in S. Ontario near Toronto, the vet wouldn't even take a lump off my dog's tail without giving IV during surgery!

I understand about the risk and expense of spaying a 12 year old female. However, what if the pyo re-occurs, say, a year from now, when she's even OLDER?

Sunsilver, that was my thought; this is an animal with known autoimmune issues. What if it comes back when she's older? If she were mine, I'd get the infection under control and spay her. 

And Hexe, that's what I was wondering, too. Is it Banfield? Sounded like it, except I don't think most of them are even savvy enough to know the pyo might successfully be treated w/antibiotics alone. Most of them would freak at an intact animal in the first place, lol, based on what I've seen of them. But hey, they're open Sunday:-)

No, this is just another greedy Omaha vet. Used to be called Rhorig (sp?) but now I think its something like the 80th and Dodge clinic... something like that. I tell you, Omaha is crap for finding decent vets. I can't stand 'em.

There is hope though - my dad was telling his coworker about all this and they take their animals to a small town vet about an hour away from here... He said that their Saint Bernard had pyo and swelling in her mammary glands and stuff too. The surgery to spay her was $250 and once it was done her lumps went away too. So here is hoping I can convince mom and them to take her there... heck, I'll drive her if I have too, that is no problem.

Hexe - yep, same dog. That time it took me threatening to call animal control on them if they didn't, and they have kept up on it, thankfully, since it reoccurs every now and then. That is one reason I am kinda surprised that they are handling it like they are now. They should have gotten a printed off thing with pricing and stuff - they did the other day. As far as I know $2500 is just for the spay... but I'll find out more when I go over there today.

I am hoping that the antibiotics get rid of it - Hexe's post makes me a little more optomistic, but reading through the rest of the posts I do still think it would be a good idea to get her fixed afterwards... She doesn't go into heat anymore, so its not like it would really change anything in that respect. She never was bred and we never planned to breed her in the first place, so I guess maybe we should've had it done sooner.

They passed off the $2500 as "It is more because we have to be extra careful." was my take on what mom was telling me over the phone.

Will find out more today.

$250 sounds too cheap to me. If they use this vet, PLEASE make sure he puts her on an IV drip during surgery! As I said above, cutting corners can risk your dog's life.

Wow I didnt know that about Banfield (that vets make up the addl income with their "own suggested services". I never cared for them myself.

Hexe made some good points. Hopefully the anti will work well and she can avoid surgery.

Prayers are with her though and good thoughts sent her way.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water!  My vet comes from a small town, practices in a small town, comes across like a country bumpkin and spayed my girl for just under $255.00 included in the price was all the blood tests recommended prior to surgery, all equipment, actual procedure, pain meds and antibiotics plus her heartworm/flea meds for the following month.  He is a respected large animal vet, lectures to vet students, does root canals and can spot HD in an 8wk old pup by sight before confirming with x-ray.  Just because it's a small town "cheap" vet doesn't mean the vet there doesn't know what he's doing...it could be he is like mine who cares more for the dog and it's owner than the all mighty dollar.  Yes, he walks on water as far as I'm concerned.  I've known him for 35+ years and will continue to use him until he retires which will be way too soon to suit me.  Do your homework.  The best vet could be the cheaper vet. 

Jenni & Sunsilver, I agree that spaying Jewel now would be the BEST treatment option, presuming her chest x-rays didn't show any lung or cardiac compromises; and it remains an option, but while there's still discussion as to the financial end of that approach, I'm comfortable that she's on antibiotics for the moment--at least she won't turn septic in the interim.  IF Jewel's heart or lungs don't look good, I would be very hesitant to encourage someone to have her undergo general anesthesia for the spay immediately, though; even if not septic, it would be better for her to be stabilized and at least have had several days of antibiotic treatment, first, to get good blood levels established before opening her up.

That said, if she were my dog, I WOULD be opting for the surgery even with the anesthesia risk.  I tend to be pretty laid back when it comes to modern general anesthesia, be it for myself or my animals, because while I know there is always a risk with it, I also know that should the worst come to pass, the passing would be painless, and most of the time whatever I'm having them put under for carries it's own risk of taking them, too.

DebiSue, yeah, your vet spayed your girl for less than $300, but she had a normal, routine procedure, not an emergency surgery in an age-compromised dog. Re the friend's vet they used for their St. Bernard, yeah, $250 IS awfully lowball for this kind of surgery, and I agree with Sunsilver as far as making sure that's going to include warmed IV fluids being administered throughout the procedure, as well as a post-op pain control medication given before she's taken off of anesthesia.  Ask questions--what does he use for pre-op anesthetic? What's he use for the inhalent anesthesia? While $2500 is far too much for even a high-risk spay like this, $250 is really far too low to cover what it costs for the use of the OR, the cost of the spay pack, the surgeon's time, the technician's time, the cost of the additional medical supplies needed to deal with the pus-filled uterus & clean up the uterine stump, cleaning & autoclaving the reusable items...

With regard to Banfield, let me make it clear that it's not so much the vets are 'selling' services or treatments that are of no benefit to the patient...it's just that they'll dispense name-brand drugs at significant markup despite the fact that far less expensive generics are available, or draw out a diagnostic process so it results in two visits instead of just a single one (such as only running one diagnostic test per visit, or doing a fine-needle aspirate, making a slide and sending that out to a lab for biopsy, instead of simply removing a large mass and sending the actual tissue in from the get-go....better to get two biopsy fees than just one, right?).  To me, it's just wrong for a medical facility to pay their medical professionals as if they were used car salespersons--can you imagine if your own doctor was paid a base salary that was in the 'meh' range, and then had to upsell you to have elective proceedures done in order to increase their salary to something more commensurate with their training and skills?  There are a lot of darn good vets in Banfield clinics, but they're usually new graduates, and there's a fairly high turnover at their clinics because of the policies (and the hours, too--most vets aren't thrilled to have to work a full non-emergency shift on a Sunday, or to pull the evening shift during the week) but that shouldn't be considered as evidence of poor veterinary skills of their staff...just a tight job market, like everywhere else.

Back to Jewel--looking for updates on how she's doing and what the next steps are.

Dog will not survive unless the infected uterus removed and then it will be touch and go. She will go into renal failure, may already be suffering from that now.  I lost my first dog to this when she was 10. From then on every bitch I owned was spayed when retired from breeding or if never intended for breeding.