Thoughts on cofirmation and working line studs - Page 5

DR, Again, no backyard breedings. I am as stated not immersed in the "working" lines. However, I have crossed paths with a good number of mostly import competition dogs. As I stated earlier, this is just an anecdotal observation, but I HAVE noticed an improvement over the last 15 years that could well be attributed to the DDR/Czech influx. Perhaps you are surrounded by a particularly outstanding population of dogs. However, I still see need for improvement. I do not have any specific examples, as I do not take the trouble to find out more just to find fault. By the way, I am well aware, as stated, that my opinion is just that. Since I am not deeply immersed in the "working" lines perhaps I do not have the same depth of experience that you do, but what I do see on the podiums continue to resemble more of the type that I described than they resemble Troll Bosen Nachbarschaft or Boomer Emsbogen. As stated, I prefer a strong boned, bull headed type, but have seen and known many of the other variety being imported and trained for competition. Please do not consider this a slight on your own experience, which is likely broader than my own. I can only state what I see, and I make every effort to specify that my opinions are my own and not represented as scientific data unless I have documentation. Best Wishes, Jonah

In my opinion all of the three look to have nice bone and heads. Amigo has a wonderfull face and head. I'm not seeing the problem here. If push comes to shove I would rather have less bone, than less courage. Nit picking every physical flaw is what morphed the West German Show into what it is today. They look more like a Hyena with overly long front legs and short rears and an atrociously sloped back. Some dogs have huge ears or shorter tails than the prefered. When it comes down to it, who says what is more important? I must say the original dogs all had short tails and flat backs. Pretty much looked like the Malinios of today. How did the show dog end up looking so different? Because the conformation enhanced their work efficiency? Hardly. Style is more like it. Some people decided to breed for looks and others worried about working abilities. Since this is in fact a working breed, I think working aspect should outway looks. There are many other breeds we can tweek and twist into something alien. The beauty Stephanitz saw in the GSD wasn't his looks but his devotion and unending willingness to do anything asked of it.

Sorry 4pack, That is just not true. The show lines have been improved for efficiency of movement as well as correctness of various features deemed important. That is not to say that there is no more room for improvement or that all breeders are breeding for the right reasons, but is the official motivation. As you said, Amigo has a good head, but his back is not correct. This begins with an incorrectly placed shoulder which produces a flat wither. The center piece is rather long, and the croup is very short. If you read the korung it states that the back is not firm which is likely a result of the parts mentioned. As I have stated before, I do not give a free pass to those who promote extreme type and angulation, nor those who ignore working abilities, but CORRECT FUNCTIONAL structure is an important part of the whole,and we must understand the parts to know how they affect the whole. Best Wishes, Jonah

Jdh, While I tend to agree with you on some of your points. I do take issue with this, "The show lines have been improved for efficiency of movement as well as correctness of various features deemed important." Deemed important to me means that the judges like it. Nothing more, nothing less. The same goes for them thinking that it means more efficient movement. I would think more of that if there were a lot more people taking their dogs out and letting them run after sheep all day for years on end, but the reality is that there's no legitimate proof that the type of dog placed highes on the podium is the type that can best do the job it was originally bred to do. Let's face it, show conformation has changed dramatically over our lifetimes and over more dramatically over the lifetime of GSD's. Heavier bone to me often means that the dog ends up clumsy and slow - one of the areas where I think the showlines have gone too far. My dog is by no means extreme in terms of size (he comes in around 90-95 lbs), but I'm not putting him through the palisade jump in French Ring because I think it would put too much strain on his shoulders. There was a time when Schutzhund had a palisade jump - I suspect that would get rid of a lot of the oversized dogs we see. Of course, the Decoy work in French ring would get rid of a lot of the oversized GSD's as well... too easy for the decoy to let them slip on by and miss the bite. :)

Very true Jochen. I'm always on the lookout for good sized dogs that can still move quick. It would be so funny to see some of these Sch dogs in FR or Mondio Ring. Can you say Eschew? LOL The Shutzhund trial has been paired down so just about any dog can pass, Especially if the helper is asked to take it easy on the dog. If we put the jumps back in the sport so many dogs would fall apart and then we would see all out this efficiency crap. Lets all run around for a bit in a squated position and see how well we do!

jdh- I am now bored with you. I agree with 4pack that the pictures looked fine. However, I don't base my knowledge on pictures as they can be very deceiving. In fact most of my knowledge comes from being around actual working dogs that work. Years ago when I first was interested I went to a show and saw GSD's with no nerves, low drives and I'll never forget a lady who told me that her male GSD (this guy was beautiful) would not do "stairs". This was when I started researching and became aware of working lines. Yes you see imperfections but overall nothing to make a blanket statement like jdh made.

WE are ALL Board with you DR!!!! Your immaturity and obvious anger management problem adds to the boredom. Knowitall's, that can not handle differing opinions are a dime a dozen and not worth anything at all. Debby

Debbie... It's BORED not Board....lol I suspect you were picked on in school and not many people liked you! Likely alittle on the plump side and never had many dates. That's why you hate my type... But your wrong! I was always nice to girls like you. PS..Not giving my opinion, I am giving facts. Not interested in bad opinions and I will not be PC and about it.

Funny how DR's experience however unscientific is "fact" whereas anyone elses is "bad opinion". Jochen, I agree that some changes are not correct, but are an aberration of the breeders and judges who choose to ignore their glaring faults because they are flashy or simply show very well. In general I am pleased to see an increase in bone, substance, power, heads, and body volume in both lines over the last 15 years. High withers stemming from better shoulder placement and better proportions are also coming into the breed. Sadly, rear angulation has become an embarassment in the show lines while remaining correct in the working lines ( in general). Upper arms in both lines leave much to be desired, and it is a rare stud that has and produces correctly angulated and proportioned upper arms. Croups are slightly better, but still need work especially in the wotking lines. Another BIG problem today is incorrect backs. The show lines have become over run with round backs, and the working lines still show a lack of firmness dippy backs. These are my honest observations. Most who study the correct structure and the reasons for each characteristic do not care to waste their words on working dog enthusiasts, but I believe that ALL lines can be improved if people make an effort to understand all sides of the picture and strive for the golden middle. Best Wishes, Jonah

LOL you are funny jdh... you have already admitted your observations are based on pictures! lol THE WORKING LINES DO NOT HAVE WEAK BACKS IN ANY HIGHER NUMBER THAN DO SHOWLINES. YOU CAN STATEMENT YOUR BS ABOUT CROUPS ANGULATION ETC BUT THE WORKING LINES CAN WORK PERIOD. THEY CAN WORK ALL DAY AND STILL WANT MORE. WHILE YOUR WORDS MAY LOOK PRETTY ON PAPER THEY ARE WRONG! YOU MUST BE FROM THE NORTHEAST? IT SHOWS! LOL