Is Electric collar necessary to train precision? - Page 1

Let me start with saying that I am not totally against trainers who are training  dogs with e collars. But I do not use it.  I believe that it is mostly unnecessary short cut  tool. And I do not think that  electric collars are cruel if used properly.  But I think that they are mostly not necessary and that trainer  who uses them is making shortcuts which will or may backfire and that the relationship between the dog and trainer is strained or not clear and that it is  better if no e collar is  used since then the dog works 100% for the trainer.  The training with e collar is faster and more reliable when the collar is on. That is for sure. But before anyone uses it I would like to point out that there  are methods which deliver just as good results.  Here is a working  video ( no editing) of training of one of my dogs ( Rex z AlpineK9) by my friend, who, I admit freely, is much better at it and more coordinated then I am. I am just saying it in order for people here keep their personal attacks against me   down a little.That is since this is not about me, but about training w/o e collar.  No pager, remote  collar, or what ever you call it is used on this dog.  Also with super companion type  relationship between them  two. I am posting this here in order to make people think before they start selecting the training method for training of their dog. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSLQ_MLEh_0&feature=youtu.be

Prager Hans

Judging by how much precision I've seen without one, no I do not believe it is necessary.  It's a possible tool just like any other.  I don't personally use one and never have but have nothing against them. I've gotten High Obedience with two dogs without one.

Hans did you mean to post Chris's video?  I think you posted the wrong link.

Thanks !!! Sorry yes it was a wrong video. Now my post above is with correct video. 
Prager Hans

The video of the dog was of some OK begining work on a young dog. But it's a far cry from being a finished dog, ready to compete at a high level. Do you have any videos of finshed dogs that you have trained without the use of an e-collar?

Hans, I avoid getting into long debates of training ideas and dogs from this breeder or the other or what my dog vs his dog can do, and on and on because they are futile, but, when it comes to the E collar, I would like to add that IF you know what you are doing, the dog will associate the E collar correction to the behavior it just engaged in, not you.
Do you use a prong or a choker when you train, do you use compulsion, if so, when you pop the dog, who does he associate that correction with?
The E collar is a communication device Hans, as much as it is a training tool and no, there is no way to get into minute corrections at 30 feet away without one. 

I don't think you should broadly comment on the use of e collars until you have walked a mile in someone's shoes. I firmly believed that e collars were cruel, and you must be a bad trainer if you can't train your dog, especially a shepherd as they are so smart.  Well, meet Maya, my litlle girl who never listened. She chased anything that moved cars, trucks, tractors horses anything, she wouldn't come she went nuts. I had no choice. i still feel guilty that I had to shock her a few times on #3 and it goes to 7. But, it was either a shock or a horse kick in the head or a head under a tire. Death or e collar.  E collar won. Now she is two years old and still alive and a much better behaved dog. There was no time to let her grow up to the point where she would just get it as she would have died first.  No more chasing cars, no more chasing tractors and no moer chasing horses. Comes when she is called the first time. I had to do it. You have to walk a mile in someone's shoes, and maybe you will see that for certain dogs, and certain owners and certain situations they are the best resort. Just my humble opinion.

I have to agree with both Chris and Hired Dog.

Hans,
I will also add a few things.
If you think most people that are using an e-collar as a part of their training start using one without any foundation work, then you have very little knowledge of what an e-collar is used for.
If you think the handler in the video is doing a great job you may want to point out a few basic things to him.
1) Correct heeling is performed when the handler starts with his left foot/leg.
The dog is supposed to respond to whatever the left leg is doing.
The handler starts heeling with his right foot/leg.
When he starts to heel this dog at a faster pace he will eventually create a dog that will forge due to the dog keying on the right leg.
It will always have to look around his left leg to see his right leg.
2) When the handler turns to the left in the video he is pivoting on his left foot inside the dog and carrying his right leg over the left.
This is, again, faulty.
The left turn is performed by crossing the left foot/leg in front of the dog (in effect forming a "T") and pushing off with the right. 

It looks like this guy and his dog could do some nice things with a good trainer.
Best wishes to him and his dog!
--Steve

Christopher it is a young dog in training. I will post him  here as he developres and titles.  
Prager Hans

 Obviously  people using e collars are on defense. Open your mind. But first read what I am actually saying in the  originla post.