Newbie ? on Sieger - Page 1

Im trying to figure things out so please dont chop my head off as I am still new to all this. Also, for those who get a little to excited by reading things on here I suggest not eating, Id hate to have you choke. The question is, is that so far the Sieger to me, from what Ive learned is that it is pretty much a show that sets the example or the standard of how a GSD should be based on the temperment, expression and structure. Is this right? Have I left anything out? Where does work fall into the show line, or does it? How come there arent that many sable or black GSD's in the Sieger? Is the BSP more of thier show or is that solely Schutzhund. Do they tend to lack what would be seen as the proper structure in the Sieger? Now if the working line and show line are put on 2 different standards, then shouldnt they be classed as two different types, or breeds. When I say two different types or breeds, I mean that both cant be called a german shepherd. Im just trying to figure things out. Maybe this is all just babble. Either way I hope somebody has the patience to respond to this in a decent and civilized manner. Thanks!

I think I just realized my question about show line work. The work would come through the structure, because if all the angles are correct and if everything is the size its supposed to be, then that would assure endurance during the gait, which then could be applied to work such as herding. Is this right or more babble?

The Sieger Show is a National conformation show, the working classes must pass a minimum type test to even compete in the ring. The other end of the spectrum is the BSP which is a working trial. Dogs that compete have met the requirements and represent their Region as the top scoring working dogs. While the Sieger show has a working test for participation and dogs must be intact and breed worthy there is no requirement for conformation or breed worthiness attached to the BSP. They are all German Shepherd dogs and the diversity of activities that one can persue with these dogs is part of the attraction. Agility, Herding, Search and Rescue, police dogs and so on. The question is what do you want to do with your dog. If you want to particpate at a top level in the Nationals get a working line dog. If top conformation is your goal get a Show line dog. If you want to participate in the other activities either one will work. It depends on the dog not the lines. Show dogs can work and there are working line dogs out there with V structure. A properly trained dog from either lines can compete and win the Universal Sieger title.

This is suppossed to be right but our dogs don't field test all day long, so how do we know the guy who made up the "correct" angles knows what the hell he was talking about? I believe angulation is all about looks. I have a very well angulated showline who can't work for more than 30 minutes without dropping. I have hidiously ugly "to showline people anyway" dogs that can go all day. These dogs have flat backs, less bone, one is oversized at the shoulder. Both have had broken legs so some arthritic issues and they still don't use it as an excuse. I can't say that drive is what pulls them through to keep going because my big male doesn't have food or ball drive at all. My dogs regularly run at least 5 miles a day at a good 20 miles per hour. My showline can't go faster than 10 mph and after a 1/2-1 mile she is done. I have been doing this at least twice a day for the last month. Yesterday I opted to leave my showline home because she is dragging farther and farther behind. She is 7, my oversized male is also 7 and my female WL is 6. My showline is from a kennel that has produced 100's of dogs in Germany for show. My other dogs are badly bred who knows what? I have no papers on them, they are rescues. I am sickened and disgusted everytime I compair my 7 year olds. My show girl has a very dry firm gate at a trot. Great for the ring. However getting her to move faster than that, is something to see. I can plainly see she was not built for working all day. My other dogs I am sure are from BYB and bred to make pups and profit not improvements, yet they still are 10 x's more physicaly firm than the well bred showline gal. 2 junk bred dogs both with previously broken rear legs, one just recently, still out jumping, running and all over performing better than my showline SCH 3. Interesting to say the least??? Is this right, or is it just babble? Either way it sertainly changed my view on lines. I used to think a V rated SCH 3 really must be something special. She is something special allright. Never in my life have a seen a more bi polar paperweight of a dog. She just lays there 95% of the time. If I wante that I would have got a lap dog! Much cheaper to feed and easier to scoop poop.

Wanted to add I just re read my post...I have been running my dogs 3-6 miles once a day for years. Just in the past month I switched it, breaking it up into 2 shorter runs for my showlines benefit and my working dogs could use the extra time out and about. They do allot of tracking about while she is catching up.

So working line handler just choose not to do Sieger and most showline handlers choose not to do BSP? It would be a waste of time for a showline dog to engage in the BSP when it could be excelling at show and a waste for the working line to do show when it could be excelling in the BSP? It just seems to me that 1 german shepherd should be able to do both and not have to pick a type of german shepherd, if that makes any sense. I dont really understand the division. I think I may be starting to understand the "Golden Middle".

I don't understand the division either, but it happened somewhere along the way. Some people like to show, some like to work, the dogs changed with the way the breedings where done.

4pack, Why is that working lines seem to have a higher drive? Breeding for drive rather than looks and structure? Im just trying to figure out why we have a showline and a working line and not one single type of GSD.

you answered my question before i posted it.

well said 4pack Mosemancr IMO The GSD is considered not the best at anything but second best at everything..This allows people to use them for alot of different purposes. If I am in need of a dog for police k9, military, narcotics/explosives, border patrol, high sport etc.. I will go with a working line that has extreme drives. I want to be able to count on that dog at any times. To get that type of drive I have to make it a priorty. I don't care about color,conformation, angles etc.. I do care that physically the dog can work hard and long. If I am showing then I don't need those drives and the color and conformation are more important. If my pups are going to pet homes I don't need the extreme drives. As a show breeder though I need to keep good nerves and good drives just not extreme. Some show breeders breed for color and conformation, angles and loose all of the drive and nerves. Some don't. No way to breed just a golden middle since the needs are so different. In SAR alot of people do look for a golden middle type pup as they seem to excel in SAR. If as a breeder you breed GSD's they should have at the minimum good solid nerves and a medium drive no matter what line. Physically they should be healthy and sound and able to do work.