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by Mosemancr on 31 December 2006 - 02:12

http://www.diehlspolicek9training.com/HUGOtable.wmv I found this same video on the same site as the muzzle video that was posted under "Punked". Can someone explain to me exactly what is going on here? To me it appears that the dog is winning by barking, but why does it have to be on a table and tied up? Ive heard a lot of bad things about table training, especially from Leerburg videos. Why is this frowned upon?

by Jason Sidener on 31 December 2006 - 03:12

This type of table training is not what Leerburg is refering to. Go to this thread on Leerburg and read what Kevin Sheldahl wrote http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/121064/page/1#Post121064

by Mosemancr on 31 December 2006 - 03:12

Ughhhh, I think it is the same as what Leerburg is reffering to. Im not too sure what Kevin says has much to do with what Ed Frawley says, but I read what Ed wrote and to me, it appears to be pretty much the same thing, minus the second box. The dog is still tied up, and is still on a box with no escape, which puts the dog into "fight drive" if Im correct. By all means, if Im wrong here, let me know, but do it nicely please, Im only trying to learn. If this is true what Ed has written, then I guess Ive answered my initial question.

grimmdog

by grimmdog on 31 December 2006 - 03:12

Mosemancr, This is not the same as what most people call table training. Some old table training includes the dog being strapped neck first to a post and being severely stressed to produce a fight or flight type of response. I completely disagree with this type of training. This type of table training, which by the way we have used with great success, uses the table to tap into a bit of defense and allows us to press the dog and work barking, not biting, to show the dog that powerful barking defeats the man. The dog learns that through powerful barking he can defeat the man and the man will run away. It is important that the person working the dog as the helper is reading that only enough is shown to the dog to produce powerful barking, but not enough to press the dog to produce things like avoidance barking or back ward behavior. The man comes out, the dog barks, the man presses just enough, the dog continues to bark and gets stronger, the man runs away, the dog learns confidence and success. Eventually the man can press closer and closer and the dog will get stronger and stronger. Then this transition is made to the ground. When done right, the dogs feel powerful and barking toward the man improves with each session. They will drag you to the table and jump up on it wagging their tails and trying to bark the man out to initiate the interaction with the man. I am the handler in this video, and all my dogs have done this. I have never had anything but success with the table. It is very important to have a helper that can read the dog though and give the dogs the "win" when they exhibit the behavior sought.

by Mosemancr on 31 December 2006 - 04:12

Oh okay. So in the other Table work there is actual biting and the dog is restricted even more? Now why does the dog have to be put on a table and secured to it? Cant the barking be done off the table? Or is it just that the dog feels a little more threatened and uneasy on the table enabling a quicker bark? I need to do more research.

grimmdog

by grimmdog on 31 December 2006 - 04:12

Mosemancr, you hit it a little bit. The table taps into a little bit of stress and the dog can be shown less to produce the result. This is key because then the dog goes to the ground, he feels MORE comfortable than the table, starts stronger, needs the same small amount to initiate, and wins quicker. The other table uses biting sometimes, yes. On this table, we try to promote barking primarily, and the dog is never ever ever restrained that short or tight to produce fight or flight type of stress. The height of the table also allows you to "stalk" the dog and sometimes come in slightly under the dog, on a dog further along in table work, and show the dog a slow, exagerated, reach of a hand to him to get more civil than a dog on the ground. The dog is then rewarded.

by Mosemancr on 31 December 2006 - 04:12

http://www.leerburg.com/tabletrain.htm I think as per Ed's article this video would still fall under the category of table training. It does make sense to me that this would build a dogs confidence, but I still dont understand why there has to be a table and a dog secured to the top of it.

by Mosemancr on 31 December 2006 - 04:12

Grimmdog, If the dog is being put under stress then this type of training could be negative? The video didnt look at all negative to me, just been trying to figure out the table, which youve just explained. I think I understand now. Thanks!

grimmdog

by grimmdog on 31 December 2006 - 04:12

They build confidence quickly in this for sure when done right. The table does well to target the dog to what we are doing, and allow us to mildly take the dog out of his element, add a small bit of stress, and get in new positions on the dog; not only to engage him, but also to impower him looking down on us rather than up at us. Ask Judges why they sit on benches 2 foot above everyone else instead of beside the defendant at a different table, eye to eye. Height can creat power when looking down. In the dog world, when two dogs T-up on each other, (meaning one dog stands perpendicular to the other dog and places his head on top the other dog's neck or head to show dominance over it) the stronger dog goes on top the weaker dog.

grimmdog

by grimmdog on 31 December 2006 - 04:12

When done correctly, the stress is MINIMAL, the reward is GREAT. Not negative at all, no pain, no flight, no submission. Just power-reward. The dog barks, and wins, when the loser (just like in nature) runs away. You should see how powerful and confident the dogs feel after they learn that their barking beats the man. They will pull you there and wag their tails the entire time, and bark powerfully.





 


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