The PPD? - Page 2

If I see 'PPD' on an advert for an adult dog for sale, with or without
titles, Schutzhund grades, KorKlass rating, or Show results,
I take precisely the same line with all:
I would want to see proof of everything that is claimed for
that dog, just as I would ask to see health certification, before
I would consider handing over money for the dog or bringing the
dog into my life and home.

If it's something like PPD that isn't provable on paper, I'd want
to see the dog perform.  Simples.  That's why I so dislike the
buying dogs 'unseen' approach, whether from Germany or three
states / counties away.
 

First of all, anyone can say their dog is personal protection trained. But to actually show what the dog can do is another thing. 

Maybe I did not make myself clear. I didn't mean a dog running in the yard barking at the neighbor across the street being claimed as a PPD. There is a huge difference with that dog, than a dog that is under total control and will act because someone took the time to train the dog the right way.  The training I am referring to is comparable to a person that takes the time to sch train a dog but not get the actual title. Not all people can travel to do the trials and not all people can afford it.  Not all people want to do it either. But, because that person doesn't want  or is not capable of doing it, does it take away the fact that the dog is trained.?

I agree with Mindmutter, if a person can not see the dog work or see video of the dog working to the level it is said it can work, I would walk away also. But if a dog is not titled but can work, I would definitely take a look.  

Many Police dogs are NOT titled.  But does that mean, they are not worth being considered being trained.  Perfect example of non titled or certified dogs was the search effort at Moore. OK.  There were dogs there that were not titled but they were still there doing rescue. Would you prefer a non titled dog searching vs none at all if no titled dogs were available.?  Just saying..

Not trying to create drama or debate, only trying to get different opinions and hopefully everyone can respect the other person's opinion. Not anyone ONE person's opinion is right.  To each his own!   

Have a good day, off to work now..

Well, a police dog is not titled, but I'm pretty sure they get certified!
I Also think their training is "just a little" more precise than a sport dog.
I for one would not take for free, a dog that had PPD attatched to it, unless it came from someone like bhall, that is "clearly experienced" in that type of training.
I would also want to be trained myself WITH the particular PPD...

Somewhere I heard a story about a lady whose ex was being a total butthead, and threatening her. She got a schutzhund trained GSD for protection.

One day while she was out, her ex broke into the house, and stole a bunch of stuff that he felt rightfully belonged to him.

He also took the dog....

As anyone who does schutzhund knows, there's a BIG difference between a dog trained to bite a suit or sleeve and a dog that will bite for real to protect its home or family.  The focus these days is so much on prey drive that many schutzhund dogs lack the protective instinct.

Yeah, I'd want to see the dog 'do the job' before I'd even think of plunking down my hard-earned cash for a supposed PPD. And the trainer had darn well better offer the buyer lessons in how to handle the dog, and how to keep its training up to date!

If there is proof of the dog working and you like what you see, then I don´t see why such a dog is less interesting than a titled dog.

If there is no standard being adhered to, to determine which dogs deserve the letters "PPD" next to a dog's name in its pedigree, it can mean anything. If it can mean anything, it is worthless as a description and even misleading, no matter how badly one tries to justify it as a bona fide title worthy of increased value, usually by a breeder trying to sell a dog. It appears to me a breeder might be attempting to attribute the fact the human thinks they are worthy of training to this caliber of dog, and that their training has value. Proof of the dog in action, in person would be the only way to verify such a distinction bestowed by the breeder or even the subsequent owner, really, if any such claims about the dog will bear them out. IMHO

I suppose such training value would be up for negotiation. My eyes kind of glaze over when I hear people tooting on about their "PPD", at the same time, their own knowledge or experience doesn't match with the promise and level of training most would expect when "PPD" is bandied all about. 

Buyer Beware, as always.

From someone in the background, here is what I see.

IPO trained dog
          A sport trained dog that has a tendency to anticipate the next step.  I saw this in the IPO trial I went to and I have see this on all of the videos.  Honestly, the bitework part of IPO was were I was most disappointed.  I expected to see a full protection / take down the bad guy intent in the dog; and from an outsiders point of view, I did not see this at any level.  Don't misunderstand, the dogs were very good at what they did.  It is just that the bitework part of the trail did not give me the confidence that the dog would protect; unless the bad guy had a bite sleeve or what hiding behind a tent.

PPD trained dog
           These are dogs that you can see the intent to take down the bad guy, no matter what it takes.  If that means bite the arm, the leg, or full body slam, then that is what the dog does.  The dog takes the bad guy out and holds him until told otherwise. 

I think a dog can do both, but if I was looking for a PPD dog, the IPO titles would not mean a thing and may make me think twice before buying.  If I was looking for a PPD and had 2 identical dogs, one with IPO titles and PPD training and then a dog that just had PPD training and both proved their training, I would likely take the PPD only trained dog first.   I would have less confidence in the sport trained dog to understand that it is not a game.

A " PPD " out of my personal experience mostly is a prey oriented dog with some foundation bitework., the few others are dogs with temperament faults....
( Before you start to "kill" me for my words, I KNOW THAT THERE ARE SOME REAL PPDs, but they are few and far between).
Up to this point ( some mediocre bitework, some heeling and maybe the commands "sit" and "down" )  dogs are easy and fast to train ( no pressure, only basic obedience, no nothing...)
I always wonder about these great advertisement videos showing a "PPD" doing some basic bitework on leash, without any pressure from the helper...

This keeps going back to the same old analogy. Some one explain what is personal about a "PERSONAL" protection dog. And can a guy buy a generic trained dog that could and would be a reliable source of protection for every client, life style or situation. A dog that will not just bite, even civil bite on command, release on command, a high degree of civil aggression, aloofness, titled or not is only a dog that has to spend hrs of training for a specific life style of the client. And most of all a dog that is adaptable to that lifestyle. Other than that you have a generic trained dog that will obey handler.

Each "PERSONAL"protection dog has to be the right dog for each "PERSONAL" need. Go buy that off a forum. And most people needing a dog like that will not be a dog person. So dog has to live and basically work on his own. The value of this dog to a dog talker is not much, a house wife with kids in Lagos Nigeria during a over throw is priceless.

Hank

most people buying a "PPD" dog would be better off going to the shelter and then paying the neighbor kids to come walk by and every time the dog was out, hit the fence with sticks and throw rocks and taunt the dog.  The end result is about the same as almost every "PPD" dog i've ever encountered.