The PPD? - Page 3

hutchins, I do not know what you read in to my post that obviously was not there? I said nothing about schutzhund. If you are training a dog to protect with true intent to bite then there should be a certification to take this animal out and know it was done right and done safe and have other criteria. I have no respect for a made up personal protection dog acronym and no testing or proof. I feel too many breeders/ trainers are really just using it for a marketing tool or people who think they need a dog to bite "for real" and do not want to spend real money or time to do proper training long term with someone knowledgable. many people here have posted that they are training their dogs for ppd and they have asked very very basic questions about dogs and when they speak about their ppd training it is obvious by what they have typed they are doing it on their own with a sleve they mail ordered and just making a dog ticking time bomb. Anyone that is not willing to go the whole path and takes short cuts is not someone I want on the end of a dog's leash that may be unstable and taught to react with it's teeth on a human.

I feel the same way about service dogs, as a handler of one. I feel it is widely abused. Fake trainers train for it and fake handlers use fake dogs for it or just simply dont know what the hell they are doing and cannot read dogs to train their own to be safe in public or to properly do the job they want it to do. 

 I feel to get proper handle on things, if you want YEAH RIGHT you really have to have a  NEED for a protection dog, then you have the responsibility to have proper training as a handler, dog needs proper training to be handled by you, and the trainers training both of you need to be real trainers and not self made titles. In order to prove themselves, you cannot do so without some sort of certification. I did sar. Anyone could take any dog and train them wilderness air scent easily and that does not make them good enough to go out and hunt for a lost human with their dog. Everything that involvs should be regulated. Anyone putting online their dog was trained to attack is setting themselves up for major problems if their dog does bite someone by accicdent or even if your life was not in danger, but some ass hat teased your dog and your dog got them.

Does this clarify my points for you?

Training is important because it let's you know the dog is trainable and if you do the training yourself, you will become aware of your dog's faults. (every dog has faults)

That being said, in a real life situation the dog will either protect or not, regardless of training. However, the trained dog is more likely to remain under the handler's control. I have two young females that I am in the process of training for IPO.  They are both great dogs with many positives and I enjoy them both. One will always be better on the protection field than the other but I think in a real life situation the other is more likely to do what needs doing.

I had an awesome schutzhund trained male who for me was everything I would want in a PPD. In several situations he proved that he was a serious dog and would protect in a real life situation. Was it training or just who the dog was?

My very first GSD had nothing more than basic obedience (sit, down, heel, etc.).  But when a burglar broke into our house, he chased him down the length of an alley and kept him cornered against a telephone pole. As long as the burglar didn't move, he did not attack but the instant the burglar tried to move, the dog was up and threatening.  This was back in the sixties and I assume it is the genetics we want today.

What you see is usually what you get.  If you like what you see in a dog, then it is up to you how important the titles are to you.

All I can say is WOW!!  Please read the original post. 

GSDNewbie, didn't mean to offend your comment. I made an "in general" comment trying to say that it doesn't matter if a dog is titled or not, if it bites someone, the owner will is responsible for the dog.  So sorry you took it the wrong way.  

Thanks everyone for your opinion. All were read objectively and are respected.  However, I can only speak fo rmyself..  

Since "PPD" is not an official title, I would think it more appropriate to put a note in the dog's comments section that the dog is trained or is being trained in personal protection. Listing it as a title is a little disingenuous, at least to me.

no problems here Hutchins, it was just obvious before your edit to your response that you did not understand my point of view so I clairified it :)

Since "PPD" is not an official title, I would think it more appropriate to put a note in the dog's comments section that the dog is trained or is being trained in personal protection. Listing it as a title is a little disingenuous, at least to me.

Exactly!  To compare the time, effort and sacrifice it takes to title a dog in IPO/ SchH to is rather disengenous to me.  It is funny and I got a chuckle from it.  To compare a Police K-9 or a dog that does SAR to a dog trained to bite a suit or sleeve in your yard is insulting.  IMO, there is no comparison to training a dog for "ppd" vs a dog that is titled in IPO.  In IPO you have tracking, article indication, obedience, retrieves on the flat, A frame and jump, send away, long down, exercises done out of motion, heeling through a group, off lead OB with another dog on the field.  You have bite work with control, escorts, outs, re attacks, etc.  I could list more.  To maintain a dog is all three aspects of the sport requires a dedicated and skilled handler and a decent dog. 

In Police work we have scent discrimination hard surface tracking, building searches with hand signals or laser, off lead or on a 30' lead, agility which includes climbing ladders, stealth or covert clears vs regular clears, off lead OB, article or evidence searches, area searches, call offs, termination of pursuit, gunfire, flashbangs or DD's, vehicle extractions, vehicle entries, maritime operations on fast boats to include cargo ship boardings and searches.  Suspect apprehension, proper targeting and alerting.  Then we have our Narcotics Detection.  These dogs run hotel rooms, vehicles, packages, luggage, boxes, parcel interdiction.  They secure the perimeter of a house on a search warrant, go in and search the house for suspects then moments later search for the residence for drugs.  I won't even comment on the amount of work and dedication it takes to train a functional SAR team. 

So to say that training a dog for "ppd" is saying "Hey I don't title my dogs, but we do train and put the dogs natural instincts to their fullest ability," is a little disingenuous to say the least.  Unless of course, Nona,  that is the fullest potential of your dogs....Then you would be very accurate.

First of all, anyone can say their dog is personal protection trained. But to actually show what the dog can do is another thing.

Nona, that is an excellent statement and I fully agree, please post some videos of your ppd dogs or training.  That would end the speculation. 
 

Yes, all these individual ideals and definitions would make it impossible to know the wishful from the real deal. That would be a great idea, Slam, for Nona to show exactly what she means when she, "speaks fo herself." Please also, give a value to the training before you post your ppd dog's videos that you have, and are providing for "ppd training". This is a great way to establish our own PDB standards, create a benchmark so to speak. Might as well start somewhere. 

Hutchins - when I see PPD listed after a dogs name, It means nothing.... actually I usually think LESS of the dog and owner as I feel it is an attempt to make the dog appear "titled" and it is misleading.  It is a pet peeve of mine I suppose.  I would not consider a puppy out of either a parent who has PPD after the dogs name OR a parent that does not and appears to be untrained.  ANYONE can say their dog is a personal protection dog and has personal protection training.  I have personally done this type of training with a dog and know what it consists of, I have seen other dogs trained in personal protection. It does not impress me.  I could claim my dogs are personal protection trained due to some of the training I have done with them in the past, but that is just silly IMO.  

And Susie - yes another pet peeve of mine.  Many dogs can look good on a video when there is no pressure/control and they are just sending the dog for an easy bite on the helper.  That type of video also does not impress me much.  As many of those dogs can completely fall apart once you add structure, pressure, control to their work.  

JMO of course,
Valerie

PPD training enhances dogs intelligence and utility. For trail you can measure dog's mental stability, endurance and ability to work and courage in protection.

The title PPD doesn´t mean anything if there is not some form of standard/certification. However this goes back to untitled or titled breedingdogs I suppose. Is a IPO1 a better indication of a workingdog than a dog you can see for yourself in training or film doing bitework in different scenarios or tested for his huntdrive etc? I agree that a mediocre dog biting a sleeve with no controll in the backyard is not much, but we are talking about dogs with some more proof of their ability than that I assume?

I don´t know about US or germany, but PPD dog is a title here in sweden for example, but then I´m talking about dogs who works for securitycompanies with their handlers, they are certified for this and also must go thru the same mandatory selectiontest as the policedogs. Their certificationprogram is easy compared to the policedogs, but this doesn´t mean they all are mediocre dogs and not trained beoynd the minimum certification, just like an IPO-title doesn´t say much if you only judge a dog based on if has an IPO-title.