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by vk4gsd on 15 July 2013 - 21:07
mebbe all posts to the forum should go direct to slam??
by beetree on 15 July 2013 - 21:07
No, you just got lucky. He picks and chooses. If you waste his 
, it won't be hard to figure out, licket-ey split! Likewise with some others! 
, it won't be hard to figure out, licket-ey split! Likewise with some others! 
by samael28 on 15 July 2013 - 22:07
VK,
maybe you should take some videos of your obedience work with this dog as well(with using different rewards ie tug,ball,food), to post with the agitation videos. I think it would provide some clarity of the total picture of your relationship in training with this dog as well as the dogs relationship to tasks laid in front of him. Also when you shoot
the videos I would do so with your current helpers and current obedience training techniques to assist you the best. The videos of the assessment with the new people is fine and can provide you and other with contrast of what happens with different people involved. So it would be best to have all the videos before prejudging on your scenario. JMHO.
The reason I say this is after reading your statement- "as far as obed i am going back to food as he has the least drive for it, tug gets him too excited and ball just makes the dog lose it's little mind." you could be causing some of these issues with your handling in both obedience and agitation work. Not picking on you but a video shows people a lot more than ones point of view of whats going on and would get you some more advantageous advice. A few that have posted here have a lot of experience and could assist you with a lot of great information if they had those videos as well as help you determine if its faulty handling, helper work, or genetics which allows them to help you solve or manage the issue or issues at hand.
maybe you should take some videos of your obedience work with this dog as well(with using different rewards ie tug,ball,food), to post with the agitation videos. I think it would provide some clarity of the total picture of your relationship in training with this dog as well as the dogs relationship to tasks laid in front of him. Also when you shoot
the videos I would do so with your current helpers and current obedience training techniques to assist you the best. The videos of the assessment with the new people is fine and can provide you and other with contrast of what happens with different people involved. So it would be best to have all the videos before prejudging on your scenario. JMHO.
The reason I say this is after reading your statement- "as far as obed i am going back to food as he has the least drive for it, tug gets him too excited and ball just makes the dog lose it's little mind." you could be causing some of these issues with your handling in both obedience and agitation work. Not picking on you but a video shows people a lot more than ones point of view of whats going on and would get you some more advantageous advice. A few that have posted here have a lot of experience and could assist you with a lot of great information if they had those videos as well as help you determine if its faulty handling, helper work, or genetics which allows them to help you solve or manage the issue or issues at hand.
by vk4gsd on 15 July 2013 - 23:07
latest clips of dog, decoy is injured (smashed shoulder) and he is training an apprentice, the apprentice is doing the actual decoying in clip under his instructions voice that you can is experienced decoy that is injured. both ex millitary handlers, real decoy was promoted to trainer, trained a lot of scout dogs over 8 years service.
dog turned 2yo in may.
on belgium sleeve;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j-ga71K2Z0&list=UUJzlbxvvCyyxmA--2OSWIyg
on a shuts sleeve;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1oq5a55I8I&feature=c4-overview&list=UUJzlbxvvCyyxmA--2OSWIyg
just seeing if he had anything as a pup, about 12mo, not 16mo as stated on clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7Pmabypc7Q&list=UUJzlbxvvCyyxmA--2OSWIyg
dog turned 2yo in may.
on belgium sleeve;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j-ga71K2Z0&list=UUJzlbxvvCyyxmA--2OSWIyg
on a shuts sleeve;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1oq5a55I8I&feature=c4-overview&list=UUJzlbxvvCyyxmA--2OSWIyg
just seeing if he had anything as a pup, about 12mo, not 16mo as stated on clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7Pmabypc7Q&list=UUJzlbxvvCyyxmA--2OSWIyg
by samael28 on 16 July 2013 - 00:07
Personally there are a few things that jump right out IMO.
Helpers, are inexperienced and arent fluent or confident in presentation of target, working the dog on the bite, or timing of reward slipping the sleeve. This can cause shallow grips and chewy ness As well as a couple of the times the sleeve was slipped while dog is re-gripping. not while dog is is solid. So he is getting a reward for being wrong.
Handler- you praise the dog multiple times while he was being chewy instead of the instances where he was calm. Maintain tension on your leash throughout as well. Only release when helper signifies for a regrip scenario. Also when the dog obtains reward (the sleeve) do not let him chew it as you were. Keep him moving so he can possess his reward and if he starts getting chewy have the helper reengage so he spits it out and back the dog off it so he looses his reward.
So in short really need to work on timing from both helper and handler perspective to provide some clarity to the dog and i think you would notice a difference in multiple aspects. The dogs mentality in the grip as well as the relationship with your dog in these exercises.
JMO. And these are just a few things that jumped out. im sure many here will go in more detail and look forward to reading the responses from the seasoned helpers on here.
Side note- Im not hammering on your helpers as we all started somewhere and its easy to pick apart a video. But i do hope your trainer is going over stuff like this with them to help them progress.
Helpers, are inexperienced and arent fluent or confident in presentation of target, working the dog on the bite, or timing of reward slipping the sleeve. This can cause shallow grips and chewy ness As well as a couple of the times the sleeve was slipped while dog is re-gripping. not while dog is is solid. So he is getting a reward for being wrong.
Handler- you praise the dog multiple times while he was being chewy instead of the instances where he was calm. Maintain tension on your leash throughout as well. Only release when helper signifies for a regrip scenario. Also when the dog obtains reward (the sleeve) do not let him chew it as you were. Keep him moving so he can possess his reward and if he starts getting chewy have the helper reengage so he spits it out and back the dog off it so he looses his reward.
So in short really need to work on timing from both helper and handler perspective to provide some clarity to the dog and i think you would notice a difference in multiple aspects. The dogs mentality in the grip as well as the relationship with your dog in these exercises.
JMO. And these are just a few things that jumped out. im sure many here will go in more detail and look forward to reading the responses from the seasoned helpers on here.
Side note- Im not hammering on your helpers as we all started somewhere and its easy to pick apart a video. But i do hope your trainer is going over stuff like this with them to help them progress.
by Chaz Reinhold on 16 July 2013 - 00:07
Genetics first, but if I want my kid to excel in 1st grade math, I don't let a second grader tutor him.
by Slamdunc on 16 July 2013 - 00:07
vk4gsd,
Ok, I watched the first two videos. I watched both with out sound. First off and the good news, nice dog! Your dog is pretty nice and has some real potential. My opinion for what it's worth, do not use the soft sleeve to work on grip. That is part of the problem, the decoy in the first video is another part of your problem. The third issue is your handling of the dog.
Handling a dog properly is critical to developing good grips and building the dog in bite work. When working a dog on lead you need to keep the leash tight. Keeping the leash tight benefits the dog. The leash only goes slack for a second during a strike or when you want to allow the dog to re grip. Otherwise, you MUST keep the leash tight. Tension benefits the dog, builds jaw strength and prevents chewy grips. Strategically allowing the leash to go slack for a brief instant allows the dog to drive into the bite and re grip. Then the slack is once again removed. This is how you as a handler work your dog and how you develop the grip. Many novice handlers do not understand the critical importance of proper handling technique. When I decoy I constantly "coach" handlers on leash control and when to allow a the dog to re grip.
Form watching your praise, it is lacking. When you praise a dog on the bite, you "reel" yourself in to the dog like reeling in a tuna, keeping constant tension and then praise the dog with long calm strokes or pats on the shoulder...Not head, eyes or ears. Then you slowly let the leash out and let the dog work; keeping constant tension on the leash the entire time. There is no slack in the leash like you allow all too often. The schutzhund sleeve should be used to build grips, not that crappy puppy sleeve that was used. That sleeve will not benefit your dog's grip.
You decoy in the first video is really not working the dog in true "prey." He's too frontal, approaches the dog directly, gives poor presentations and poor catches. I prefer more movement in prey from the decoy or prey source.
I am going to make my wife read this thread so she can see that "I am right" for a change.
Ok, I watched the first two videos. I watched both with out sound. First off and the good news, nice dog! Your dog is pretty nice and has some real potential. My opinion for what it's worth, do not use the soft sleeve to work on grip. That is part of the problem, the decoy in the first video is another part of your problem. The third issue is your handling of the dog.
Handling a dog properly is critical to developing good grips and building the dog in bite work. When working a dog on lead you need to keep the leash tight. Keeping the leash tight benefits the dog. The leash only goes slack for a second during a strike or when you want to allow the dog to re grip. Otherwise, you MUST keep the leash tight. Tension benefits the dog, builds jaw strength and prevents chewy grips. Strategically allowing the leash to go slack for a brief instant allows the dog to drive into the bite and re grip. Then the slack is once again removed. This is how you as a handler work your dog and how you develop the grip. Many novice handlers do not understand the critical importance of proper handling technique. When I decoy I constantly "coach" handlers on leash control and when to allow a the dog to re grip.
Form watching your praise, it is lacking. When you praise a dog on the bite, you "reel" yourself in to the dog like reeling in a tuna, keeping constant tension and then praise the dog with long calm strokes or pats on the shoulder...Not head, eyes or ears. Then you slowly let the leash out and let the dog work; keeping constant tension on the leash the entire time. There is no slack in the leash like you allow all too often. The schutzhund sleeve should be used to build grips, not that crappy puppy sleeve that was used. That sleeve will not benefit your dog's grip.
You decoy in the first video is really not working the dog in true "prey." He's too frontal, approaches the dog directly, gives poor presentations and poor catches. I prefer more movement in prey from the decoy or prey source.
I am going to make my wife read this thread so she can see that "I am right" for a change.
by vk4gsd on 16 July 2013 - 00:07
sam thanks for comments.
by vk4gsd on 16 July 2013 - 00:07
slam, i missed yr post when i commented, thanks a bunch, thats something i can work with. the dog jumps around a lot kinda hard to maintain tension tho is it not? i do not want to put him on his back by having tension on the dog in mid-air, been working a bit on calming him in that respect. know any training clips focused on the handler, most just say "be a post" freakin trying to.
hey that puppy sleeve is a synave (spelling) arm exactly the same design as a bite suit arm, the hardest bite arm (advanced arm) just minus the rest of the bite suit, cost me a freakin packet to buy,you can see the blurb for it on leerburg where i bought it.
i know slam is always right but if thats a puppy sleeve then all the ringers are just working dogs on a puppy sleeve???
really appreciate you came down and bothered to comment on my pooch, just a bit more clarification on the points i raised good sir.
my new sig, slam is always right.
hey that puppy sleeve is a synave (spelling) arm exactly the same design as a bite suit arm, the hardest bite arm (advanced arm) just minus the rest of the bite suit, cost me a freakin packet to buy,you can see the blurb for it on leerburg where i bought it.
i know slam is always right but if thats a puppy sleeve then all the ringers are just working dogs on a puppy sleeve???
really appreciate you came down and bothered to comment on my pooch, just a bit more clarification on the points i raised good sir.
my new sig, slam is always right.
by Slamdunc on 16 July 2013 - 01:07
vk4gsd,
Bite suits do not develop good bites, sleeves with good bite bars help to develop good bites. That sleeve is an intermediate level sleeve and your dog is beyond that. If you want to use a suit, then use a suit. If you want to work on grips use a hard sleeve with a good bite bar.
Your leash control will stop the jumping as well as your decoy. The slack will cause the dog to jump, flip and wind up on his back. When the decoy approaches, back up if you have to to get the dog at the end of the leash. The dog needs to be at the end of the leash so it doesn't rush forward and slam into the end of the lead and get corrected. You may benefit from back tying the dog and working him on a post.
I am far from "always" being right. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then.
Bite suits do not develop good bites, sleeves with good bite bars help to develop good bites. That sleeve is an intermediate level sleeve and your dog is beyond that. If you want to use a suit, then use a suit. If you want to work on grips use a hard sleeve with a good bite bar.
Your leash control will stop the jumping as well as your decoy. The slack will cause the dog to jump, flip and wind up on his back. When the decoy approaches, back up if you have to to get the dog at the end of the leash. The dog needs to be at the end of the leash so it doesn't rush forward and slam into the end of the lead and get corrected. You may benefit from back tying the dog and working him on a post.
I am far from "always" being right. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then.
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