operant conditioning - i am a believer - Page 1

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by vk4gsd on 04 September 2013 - 20:09

got some pups with zero drive for the ball. around 10 months now, have made a no fuss association with the ball and food, started just rolling it away and any interest gets a mark reward. very slowly built this up to searches and now getting some energetic retrieves and they are competing for it such that if you did not see them as pups you would think they had some way decent retrieve drive. all this done as informal play over months, no corrections.

old news to most but a big light bulb moment for me.

operant conditioning all the way -  i am a believer.

YogieBear

by YogieBear on 05 September 2013 - 09:09

It is the only way I train.......Positive reinforcement for any situation I train.  You can actually see
the light bulb go off in the dog.....   Obviously it is easier  to get a dog with ball drive and don't have to teach that - but I have had dogs with no ball drive - that I had to build that drive....

So I guess the light bulb went off in your head too.....lol

Yogie

BlackthornGSD

by BlackthornGSD on 05 September 2013 - 12:09

Well, also, ball drive for some bloodlines doesn't start to come in until after 12 months or so. I had one female who had great retrieve/ball drive until she was 6 months, then it stopped for 6 months, and came back with a vengeance after 12 months.

At the same time, yes, operant conditioning can make a difference.

Christine

VKGSDs

by VKGSDs on 05 September 2013 - 13:09

Remember operant conditioning is not positive reinforcement.  OC is FOUR quadrants, +R, -R, +P, and -P.  When people say the train using OC I assume they are using some combination of all four quadrants (as do I).

momosgarage

by momosgarage on 05 September 2013 - 15:09

@VKGSDs I have learned to assume people do not know what operant conditioning is, because they always forget two quadrants or never knew they existed: Negative Punishment and Negative Reinforcement.  But I do understand why. These two concepts are generally only taught in college classrooms, in specific programs.  For me I learned, hands on, in a primatology seminar/intern program, spread out over a sequence of courses, in a period of 3 semesters, and even then I get stuff wrong.  Its not something people will run into in High School or in General Education college courses and even if they did, they won't spend time on the topic long enough to truly understand how to apply it.  Other than Ivan Balabanov and Bart Bellon, I haven't seen many others in the dog world do all 4 quadrants as effectively, while simultaneously understanding operant conditioning in a truly applied fashion.

YogieBear

by YogieBear on 05 September 2013 - 18:09

Honestly - I had to google the word...........If there is 4 quads - then I use two........Positive motivation and once he knows it - then correction .............is that two quads?   lol  maybe I will research - from what VK said I assumed he was talking about positive motivation....but now I am not so sure.......please explain the formula - +R, -R, +P, and -P. ..........I get - the plus and the minus - I dont know I agree with it - especially with a 10 month old puppy - but I would like and explanation of what the definition is.......

Yogie

momosgarage

by momosgarage on 05 September 2013 - 19:09

Not the greatest explanation in the world, but a very quick read:

http://bcotb.com/the-difference-between-positivenegative-reinforcement-and-positivenegative-punishment/

@YogieBear I wouldn't get too attached to thinking you can "agree" or "disagree" with such methodology, if I were you.  You can certainly choose not to do something, however this is proven science with many, many, decades of results.

Funny, a few hours ago, poster named Haz referred to practitioners knowledgeable of Operant Conditioning as "Egg Heads" and that some "intuition based" trainers have "magical training methods" that cannot be imitated or duplicated by science.  PLEASE, don't be one of these people.

by vk4gsd on 05 September 2013 - 20:09

have to admit i have not delved into a formal study of the 4 quadrants, i just wanted to teach my puppy to play fetch. i will never use aversives for a game of fetch, kinda defeats the purpose of play. that whole bart bellon nepopo crap is marketing genius and no doubt works i guess. to me who is a nobody in the sport it is just a fancy name for escape training, ie the "po" is just  absence of pain, dog learns to do X  to switch the pain off - all so you can get more points than the other guy in the trial - imo only a terminal loser would want to win that bad. bart can shove his nepopo.

by beetree on 05 September 2013 - 20:09

LOL, that explains it even more! Just pick out the 2 out of 4 quadrants that suits just fine! 

Just wait 'till you run out of "rewards". Then you will need a new Lightbulb, be sure and let someone know.

momosgarage

by momosgarage on 05 September 2013 - 20:09

@vk4gsd I wasn't saying people should like or dislike Bart Bellon and his associated methods. Yes, the terms he uses to describe things do sound a little silly, but thats becuase he wants to keep everything in layman's terms.  However, this guy does REAL operant conditioning, just like they do in the lab.  That point is not arguable, it only a matter of choice for you, to use it or not to use it.  Ivan Balabanov most certainly does a little Nepopo too in his training, its just a lot more subtle.





 


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