$100K Clone Mutt - Page 4

Last time I'm wasting my time on this childish conversation.  You admit that the relatively simple genes that are responsible for color are not duplicated exactly by cloning.  A relatively simple genetic expression.  The extremely complex one of bucking though.  We nail that one correctly.  Cloned bulls buck like the animal they were cloned from, but they may not look like him....?????

You confuse (among many other things) the theory (the what if?) with the scientific process that proves or disproves the theorem.  Probably over your head as most of this seems to be.  But that's ok, you live on your fantasy island.  Have fun there.  I'll stick to the real world and spend my time with people who genuinely have something to discuss and possibly even something to teach that's not  an opinion so contrary to the laws of science and nature. 

No, Susie, it's the WAY they buck that makes the difference. I'm sure you've heard of "genetic grips" in a dog? Same thing with genetic bucking. And not all bulls will buck, just the same as not all dogs will bite a sleeve. A deer running can't be equated to a bull that will buck to the degree desired from PBR bulls any more than it can be compaired with all dogs will bite with the equal intensity...

They should X-ray all the Toppies hips & Elbows and publish an article on any findings or lack of findings.

Gsdlineage, i had suggested on the HD dna thread, money might be better spent cloning OFA excellent hips dogs and then raising some the clones in manners which have been claimed to cause environmental Hd, other raised in hip normal manner, etc, then compair.

"Genetic grips" is a myth - it´s a combination of

genetics of physique
head( espacially jaws, length, strength, angles  )
muscles ( especially head and neck, power )
teeth
followed by an athletic body
...
genetics of character
temperament and stable nerves
...
combined with proper socialisation and training.

You need all of it,  a lot of different genes involved, there is no single gene for "grip".
Translate this to "bucking" and you get it.

No, genetic grips is not a myth ( no more than genetic obedience is a myth) and genetic bucking is not a myth...I have seen the evedence; I bought a couple pups from a dog that is famous for producing genetic grips in his pups, that, to my surprise, were slight in head structure, sweet character (almost soppy), missing teeth, not what i would call bold, (they would go into a panic when left alone), but the grips were vicelike..on any object, PVC pipe, tug, two by four.
As for you explaining the "gentic buck" the same way, naw. Those bulls come in all shapes and sizes, and temperaments.
But I agree that it is many genetic traits coming together, and that is my point....genetics that can and are passed on from donor to clones... So much so that a person familiar with the old donors can watch clones buck and KNOW, by the style..... that is a Yellow Jacket clone, or that is a Raindeer Dippin clone, and so on.

So, help me understand something Susie, if genetic grips are a myth, are all those NVBK breeders in Belgium doing it wrong? They have been breeding dogs with huge, full grips for 100 years...have they been  wrong all this time?

Have you ever seen a 6-8 week old puppy out of those lines? You can just stand there, make very little attraction and the puppy with run to you and bite, FULL, and push IN to the bite, genetics or what?

Huge heads, little heads, big or small dogs, they all come out of the womb and bite full while pushing into the bite because they breed dogs that will produce these puppies. Genetic grips are not a myth, just like the desire to hunt is genetic and the desire to herd is, so are grips.

You don´t get the point - I just want to say that there is no single gene for "grip" - not more, not less, it´s a combination of a lot of traits ( the more of the above, the better ).

Let´s try it to look at it from the other side: You are able to acknowledge the clone of a certain bull because the same physical built and similar temperament will make him buck like its donor - are you okay with that explanation? A lot of genes working together for the result, but no single "bucking" gene and no single "grip" gene.

Same with gaiting - the physical built and the temperament ( again a lot of different genes involved ) of ancestors and siblings makes the gait look similar, but there is no single "gaiting" gene

People tend to simplify, because they only care about the result, not the reason.

Hired, I have seen a lot of dogs, puppies, German Shepherds and Mals...a good working dog with a "full grip" is the result of a lot of genes.
OT right now, but not all of the NVBK dogs do have full grips, neither do all of the German Shepherds. We shouldn´t forget simple reality.

Indeed Susie, not all NVBK puppies have full grips and the ones that dont get culled. Still, the breeders breed dogs with full grips because the goal is to produce those grips which are genetic, otherwise whats the sense of breeding anything that needs to be tested and trained and proven?

Genetics play a huge role, I would say the biggest one when looking for breeding animals because those animals will tend to produce what they are. People today tend to downlook the genetic factor because its a final conclusion, meaning you cant fix genetics so what you have in your hands is not going to turn out the animal you were looking for.