GSD (Is there such a thing as too much Drive ?) - Page 6

Gustav, wish I could 'like' your post more than once!  We've just been having a discussion about the VA dogs, and I've pointed out the trend to overangulation has re-invented the trot, so it's no longer a 2-beat gait with diagonal legs moving in unison. Some dogs still have their front legs 6 inches in the air, while the diagonal hind leg is already on the ground, and their gait still passes as a 'correct' trot??  Sorry, not in MY book!    I was just at a club trial on the weekend, and one of the older competitors was complaining about this same issue with the showline dogs.

So, what about reliability in the 'screamer' over-the-top dogs?    I certainly wouldn't want an over-the-top dog doing bomb or mine detection! What if it was too driven to do a nice, quiet sit in front of the explosives, and managed to set them off?

how about....training?

bzcz, could you elaborate, please? Do you mean training the high-drive dog to teach it to cap its drive? As I said earlier in this thread, I've seen someone who has a dog like this, and the training is VERY different. Most schutzhund/IPO people build their dog's drive with lots of fast tug or ball work. With this dog, it's the opposite. They make him do a down/stay in front of the blind, and he's only allowed to move when given a command. NO barking, either. I am sure barking comes so naturally to a dog like this that when the time comes, and they have the control they need, he WILL bark.

I'm sure there are some here who may not agree with their methods, and indeed, it DID have me scratching my head. Then I saw how wound-up the dog could get when it was watching other dogs working, and I understood why they'd chosen to do things this way.

Of course, the usual disclaimer applies: The only thing two dog trainers can agree on is what the third one is doing wrong!    But if it works for them, hey, what the heck?

Gustave; I do believe it is not valid to compare drive and angulation. I would subsitute size [ too big]  in breeding the GSD as another fault being promoted as ''correct''.  I take your dare and ask what about reliability? 

SS,

I don't know the dog you are talking about or what they are doing, but if it works for them and the dog, then do it.

There is far too much bitching, whining and miss information in this thread.  I don't like this, I don't like that.  Honestly, it's not about you or anyone else.

Some of the mindless fear mongering misconceptions:  a high prey dog is going to chase my children.  No they are not.  Children should never be seen as prey, they should be seen as part of the family (pack).  If they are not and they are chased, you don't have high prey, you have a dog with a screwed up head that has no use for anything.  Oh, but they are going to chase my cats!  Well yeah, cats are prey.  If you don't like that, then get off your butt and train them not to.  It's been done many times.

All high drive dogs are just high prey drive dogs. It couldn't possibly be anything else.

Oh but they scream and bark in crates because they are anxious.  No they are not anxious.  They are frustrated because they want to be doing something.  Don't like it?  Teach them to be quiet and relax when they get a chance.  BTW many a dog is taught in protection to bark out of frustration.  So now we are going to slam them for what they have been taught.

Then there's the fabled "off switch", because no longer are they thinking breathing creatures.  They instead are our little tinker toys to play with when we want and when we don't they should go sit on a shelf or under a desk and just wait for us to get up off our butt and do something.

Course this all defies the logic of a dog who has enough drive and energy to herd sheep all day long.  He should be a couch potato on command.

The GSD is by design, supposed to be a dog with a variety of temperaments.  Don't want a high drive dog?  Then don't get one. But quit talking shit about what you know nothing about.  I can take both of my high drive dogs out and have them watch my sons flag football game with me.  You bet when they see him get the ball that they want to get out there with him.  But they sit there and watch because they are taught to behave.  It's not that hard. 

Don't want to deal with that?  Then get a pet quality one or a lower drive dog who can do service assistance.  Get whatever dog your little heart desires the variety is out there in the GSDs.  But knock off the crucifying of the working lines because you don't understand them.

Regarding your bomb dog example.  I don't care if he barks too high heaven on a find and does the twist.  His marking behavior is up to his handler/trainer.  A drug dog they may want the active behavior, the drug dog they may want the bark.  It's up to them and their certifying agency.  If the dog certifies, it's not your worry and if he doesn't, its not an issue either then is it?

How is it that you feel you get to decide what would be good for a bomb detection dog?  The higher the drive, the more times in a given period the dog can be deployed.  The rest is up to them. 

Authorities have stopped searching through rugged terrain Monday for a mountain lion that attacked a 6-year-old Northern California boy, officials said.

The search stalled because a team of tracking dogs became exhausted around midday while scouring the area for the big cat in humid conditions, said California Department of Fish and Wildlife Lt. Patrick Foy.

Team of dogs exhausted after half a day of tracking.  That's where too low a drive will get you.

But they are real working dogs!  Not like those useless IPO dogs that dont have real jobs..

I think the Cat tracking dogs might not be a good/'bad example here. I have seen very high drive dogs run themselves into fatque and not be able to finish their job. It might be the handlers fault for not ''handling'' their charges properly, maybe They should have forced the dogs to stop and rest. But to have a good discussion on ''is there too much drive'' we must seperate training issues from preformance issues.  An oversized dog with improper angulation is the breeders fault. A high drive dog who is low achiever might just be a bad handler/trainer[?] 

I agree with GSDstudent. Maybe the dogs weren't fit. Maybe the handlers didn't care for the dogs adequately. They should have taken steps to make sure the dogs didn't get overheated, eg, sluicing them down with water whenever possible, and taking rest breaks in the shade. I've heard of this happening to hunting dogs in hot, humid weather, even to the point the dog died! Handlers need to be aware of the risks posed by the weather and take steps to keep their dog healthy.

What kind of dogs were they?  If you're going after a mountain lion, a hound might be the preferred dog rather than a GSD.

Sorry GSD student, disagree with you this time.

I hope Haz isn't really that clueless....

Part of the job of training is to work the dog past the point of fatigue.  In protection I will pick my time but I will work a dog till he is fatigued because fatigue brings cowardice and the have to learn to overcome that.  It is a carry over from what police dogs have to do.

When I train the track, I will also work the dog past the point of fatigue.  He has to work even when tired, it's discipline.  Part of the training of tracking dogs is teaching them how to work through all possibilities.  In the Cougar example, they have a pack of dogs.  Don't know how many that means but I would safely bet at least three.  3 dogs should have the drive to be able to track more than half a day.

A dog with drive will work himself past the point of fatigue, that's the whole point of drive.  This is a real world example of why high drive is necessary. 

It may not be everybody's cup of tea, but we shouldn't be bashing it as if it's a problem, and we sure shouldn't be trying to reduce the breed to the lowest common denominator.