Training pup to remain in "down: position - Page 4

Wow...bzcz, I suggest before attacking someone, you learn a bit about what they've done with their dogs!  Blitzen  is no newcomer to the dog world!

On second thought, how about just forgetting about the attacks...   There are many different ways to train, and a good trainer has more than one method in his/her bag of tricks, and is willing to try others, depending on the individual character of the dog!

For instance, I was working on the dumbbell exercise with Star last week. She takes it in her mouth VERY reluctantly, and spits it out ASAP, in order to get a treat as a reward. Progress with her has been VERY VERY slow.

Our trainer suggested trying to get her excited about the dumbbell and treat it as if it were a toy or tug. I began frustrating her with it, not letting her get to it, and moving quickly to excite her prey drive. She actually began barking, as if I were the decoy, tempting her with the sleeve! The difference using this method was like night and day!  When allowed to finally take the dumbbell, she happily carried it in her mouth, and refused to surrender it immediately!

To go back to training your puppy, I also just wanted to clarify that once the dog has mastered an exercise, I gradually phase out the treats.

If a dog resists the down, I may gently push on its back, and if it STILL resists, take hold if its front paws, and place them in the 'down' position. So, yes, I DO use physicall corrections when necessary.

I had 2 female GSDs before I acquired my male, Ranger. He was already 3 years old, and had not even been taught to walk on a leash. I had a TERRIBLE time teaching him the 'down'! He would just go for the treat right away, and he was so big and strong, that physical corrections were very difficult to do. They didn't seem to work, anyway. He just shrugged them off, and resisted me with all his strength, even when I corrected him as hard as I could!  If I used the really harsh old-school method of putting his leash under my foot, and pulling on it to pull him down, he'd resist until he was practically passing out from lack of air! (I grew up on Kohler, and have used some methods in the past that even make ME wince...)

I was also doing tracking with him, and I asked the tracking trainer, who was very experienced with training, for suggestions. She said to find a bench or some other obstacle that would make him to go down in order to reach to the treat. I tried this method, and it worked like a charm! NO need for physical corrections at all! Of course, I was able to eventually transition to doing the exercise without the obstacle, once he had the idea. But the 'down' has never been his favourite excersise. I think it's a 'guy' thing: they don't like putting themselves in a submissive position!  )

In schutzhund, I have used treats for training, as the dog I am working with was started on treats as a reward, but any future dogs I train will be trained using a ball or tug.  It just seems to work better for the focused heeling, and weaning the dog off it seems to be easier!  The other club member using treats found the same thing with her dog.

SS none of your examples are relevant to the point you attempt to make.

Did you force the dumbbell in your dog's mouth because she was reluctant to grab it? No because it would have been counter productive and stupid.

Wanna explain how well that force thing worked again with your dog Ranger?  Which is EXACTLY what I said would happen when you teach a puppy by force? It's not a "guy" thing.  My dogs "guys" dive for the plotz because they like the game of it.  They weren't forced. 

Using treats or the ball is a preference for the handler and the dog.  Again, none of it is forced.

You also don't mention the whole idea of forcing a pup who is entering the fear imprinting stage of his life.  Let's create another Ranger like problem.

If Blitzen has all these years of experience, then she should act like it and not misquote others to serve her agenda.  See, I don't care who you are, I care about the dog.  And her suggestions are outdated and inappropriate for a four month old puppy.

Don't care if ANYBODY likes that I say that.  It is the truth and I don't care who or what you are.  Bad training is bad training.

One of the helpers at our club trains using a clicker. It seems to work well. I think there are as many different methods to train dogs as there are people who do it.

#5 TOS You May Not.....

carry out personal attacks, be rude, disrespectful, insulting, threatening or abusive publicly to any member of PDB

Blitzen,

That would be relevant if it was true. Your training suggestions were outdated by 50 years.

What you attributed to that person is not what they published in their own book which even you quoted later. Quit trying to hide behind semantics.

A clicker is nothing like pushing a four month old puppy down.  It creates opposition reflex as I said earlier and sunsilver explained how that manifests on her dog ranger who has learned to resist to the point that he can't be forced down. That's where your advice was going to lead a four month old puppy.

If you consider that a personal attack I can't help you.  Your methods are archaic and your advice was deeply flawed.

I keep reading these examples of differences in training to justify it.  Explain one where forcing an animal by over powering it is the preferred method.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtFR4che_D4

Nothing wrong with that method of training. Only thing I would add is that for newbies there is no stay command in ipo.  You can use the same technique just use the command(platz in this case) instead of the stay command.

First of all, bczc, I was not responding to you and I did not and and will not ever ask you for advice, help of any sort, or to comment on what I post here. Yet, you seem to always make that you business anyway.

Second I read what Stickland said before I posted it here and saw the same thing you saw, that she did use food occasionally as a reward for OB training and that the reviewer felt her advice was outdated. Had I not wanted anyone to see that, I certainly would not have posted that link. Instead of that information being used for further discussion on training methods, YOU use it to make your normal rude and childish comments about another member here.

Third, I never told the OP to be forceful with a 4 month old puppy, He asked for advice on how to work on extending his long down and I told him what worked for me. Kneeling down next to a dog to get to its level, placing one's hand on  his shoulder and GENTLY pushing him back down, stroking his back and telling him waht a great dog he is not being abusive or forceful. I advised on only giving the down command one time because I learned a very long time ago that continuing to repeat a command to a dog is not a good training method and creates bad habits.

Instead of your rude comments about using food as training rewards, why don't you offer your expertise on how to treat the dog correctly so the treat doesn't become a bribe? When I trained my other breed, I had to use food to keep them interested. I found they didn't want to work without food treats both in and out of the ring and it was very difficult to break them of always looking for that food. Back in the 80's I decided that I would change my method and use only praise where I could. When I got my first GSD for OB I was astonished to find out that she didn't need food; she did what I asked her with praise only. The same is true with my current dog, I do not use food to train her. Maybe your dogs respond favorably to food rewards, mine don't. We had a similar discussion a while back when I commented that I have never used an ecollar for OB training, you took exception to that also. If you use food and ecollars to train  your dogs, then that's what you do; I use neither.

I am not the only member of this board to be fed up with your bullying and incessant rudeness. You spoil every post here by belittling and trashing everyone and anyone who dares to disagree with you. I have myself received a number of personal messages here about your attitude. Your reputation in the GSD world is not exaclty stellar, many here know you . Why is it never enough for you to say - I disagree and why, you have to always make it a personal assault. You have stated things here about your OB experience I recognized as not being true, but I took the high road and didn't call  you on them. You have intimidated some members here to the point that they won't respond to any thread you are involved in. They prefer to stay under your radar.

I'm not going to belabor this any  longer and I'm sure you will have to have some sort of hate filled response so I'm done responding to you directly. From now on I will report any more of you rude posts to admin as abusive and they can do what they want. I am done with you. I want to get back to talking about GSD's; I care about the breed too.

Lol.  I don't trash you.I trash your inappropriate training methods.  So gently force a pup down, because the pup won't escalate the force needed because of opposition reflex. After all its gentle force.  Yeah right.

Love the veiled comments, if you think I'm not being truthful them call me on it,I can take it and I have no worries about whether I'm truthful our not.

My rep in the gsd world? Way funny pray do tell.  I left training in the club scene because I got tired of the idiotic owners who make their dogs suffer because of what they want in their training or what their issues are.never what was right for the dog. 

I took one of my young dogs and competed in the state 4h alumni class.  Out of 17 dogs we took first with a 198.  Did I forget to mention that's akc style obedience?  Or that yesterday I took my young dog to a strange club where he had never been and he earned his bh title.  

So please tell us all what juicy gossip you are alluding too, we all hate to be in the dark.  And then maybe just maybe you can shift the topic of the issue that your training with no treats is your choice but you advising someone with a four month old puppy who is going to be going through the fear imprinting stage, WHO YOU DON'T KNOW AT ALL, to use force is bad advice.

Yes there are many varied method to train, overpowering a dog is a poor choice.    My advice was to let the dog grow up some more but I also agreed with sunsilver s advice on how to work on it if the op chose to continue to progress at this early age..  

Unlike you,I don't train all my dogs the same way. I do what the dog needs.  You talk about the dog serving you in obedience. To me that's a demonstration that you don't even understand what obedience is really supposed to be.

Has anyone used a clicker to train AKC OB? I've never been able to master it well enough to see any good results. I must be doing something wrong?