Training pup to remain in "down: position - Page 5

bzcz, I don't care what you've done with your dogs. It doesn't make up for you acting like an arrogant bully on this forum!

 

@blitzen: deb jones and judy keller come to mind as a starting point as they have a heavy akc "focus"  http://www.k9infocus.com/

Sunsilver,I don't care what you think about how I act.  I tell it like it is from the dogs perspective. 

There are different styles of training and there is also inappropriate training.  You don't get a pass on bad training just because you call it a different style. It's still bad training.

Dogs don't get a choice, they're stuck with us.we owe it to them to do it right FOR Them and not TO them.  If you get offended because your too busy defending yourself and not looking out for the dogs best interests, that's not my fault. 

Maybe you should pay more attention to the message.

Regarding clickers, I've seen their use come and go in peaks for over twenty years.  I think they can be used for a good teaching tool but I don't see their value as a finishing tool.  The clicker is used to mark correct behavior, then using operant conditioning it is supposed to become the reward on its own.  Very few perform this diligently enough to make that transition.  For those that do, the clicker can't be used in canine competitions so it loses its value as a reward in the competition.  It works very well in sea world and circus type of environment where it can be used as a reward after the bridging is complete.

For me in the dog world I haven't seen its use work to the result that I am looking for. Others swear by it.  It's all in how you use it with the individual animal you are training.

Thanks, Bebo. I don't know either of those ladies. If they read this board I hope they will offer their input.

BTW Winnie Strickland did not retire from OB showing in 1955, that information is incorrect. Winnie was still showng her GSD's well into the late 80's, early 90's. She transported her dogs to shows in her convertible, top down in good weather, with a dog seated next to her on the passenger's seat, the others side-by-side seated on the rear seats. I never saw her with less than 4 GSD's at one time. While she was in the ring with a GSD, the rest were platzed outside the ring staying there until it was their turn to compete. She always attracted a crowd at every show and was a great ambassador for the breed. If you haven't already read her and Moses' breed book, you might enjoy it for the photos alone. She did things with GSD's that few, if any, ever did. Her OB training methods may be outdated by modern standards, but no one could argue with her success.

I believe Hexe owned one of her dogs, she could probably tell you what an impression Winnie left on the dog world at the time.

I didn't reference her retiring 50 years ago, it was her methodology of 50 years ago.

Which we now know that she changed and evolved along with everyone else (except evidently for you) and that she did use food in her training.

Look, I'm not saying you have to use food, or you have to use a toy.  But you HAVE to do something to induce the dog to want to be with you, NOT SERVE you. The whole servitude/obedience idea is outdated.  The dog and you should be a team working together. Praise on it's own is not enough of a paycheck for competitve obedience.  For home stuff, it may work, depending on the dog.

FORCING a dog into any position as a teaching tool is a poor method regardless who you are.  FORCING a four month old puppy who may already be started in his fear imprinting stage is a recipe for disaster.  SS gave you a real life example of a dog who has learned to resist the force to the point that you can't make him down.  Let's see if we can create that problem with a new puppy.  You keep emphasizing gentle.  Of course the puppy is going to go down under only gentle pressure.  He would never resist it because he evidently must've been born without the opposition reflex that everyone else has.  You can say gentle, but that doesn't mean it will stay there.  And then what?

You ignore everything that doesn't serve your view of how it should be done,ie even in your initial refencing of her (Winnie) you stated that she didn't use food, that it demeaned dogs, etc etc.  and in doing so, you fail to recognize the very real problems that your advice could cause.  Dogs aren't a chalkboard that you get to wipe clean every time you make a mistake with.  You make a mistake and they live with it forever while you move on to your next dog.

Instead of recognizing any of the pitfalls of your advise, you circle the wagons and pull quotes from where ever you can to justify your method (even if the quotes aren't correct) or you quote the TOS, or even make vague personal attacks and innuendos to deflect the topic off of the message.

As you continue to do that, you will also continue to stunt your growth as a trainer.

Experience doesn't make you good at anything, it just means that you've been there a long time.

bzcz,

 

I have been following this thread and your knowledge of training and techniques are interesting. Please do not take what I will say as interfering in your and Blitzen's discussion of best advice for this specific case, as it is not, take it as a need to know, if what I will say sounds stupid please forgive me for that, I am not knowledgeable about training.

Few questions that come to mind

1. If a method of training is outdated that doesn't necessarily mean it was wrong, some rules change due to humanitarian reasons or whatever, so modern training methods are not necessarily more correct or productive. If we have two dogs, trained by two totally different schools and both perform taught task perfectly then there is no correct and wrong school here, is that correct?

2. Utility dog serves human as a guard, seeing eye, search and rescue etc, so it isn't wrong to think of a dog as a servant to his owner and be treated so, but ofcourse humanely without torturing etc, correct ?

3. A dog should understand and accept human as his master, he is to obey and submit, right or wrong?

4. Amongst dogs, mother teaches and corrects its puppies by biting and hitting them, but not so hard to injure them, so why is it normal and acceptable from Mum dog to do that but not from human owner in training?

5. Some dogs accept forceful correction with hand without affecting their character negatively, they are hard in nature, is it still wrong to correct such dogs with a push by hand from owner ?

 

Ibrahim, I wish I could find some photos of the GSDs's Strickland trained to do so many exciting things. I think you would love to see them. I had all her books, but I gave them away;  now I wish I'd have kept them. The first time I saw her at a show with all those dogs in her convertible and platzed next to the ring, I couldn't believe my eyes.

Ibrahim,

In answer to your questions:

1. If a method of training is outdated that doesn't necessarily mean it was wrong, some rules change due to humanitarian reasons or whatever, so modern training methods are not necessarily more correct or productive. If we have two dogs, trained by two totally different schools and both perform taught task perfectly then there is no correct and wrong school here, is that correct?

Your confusing style with evolution here.  i.e.  SS can train with treats, I can use a ball, you could use a tug, blizten could use a clicker (all examples, there are more) and we would all have our training style.  At the end of the day, we would be judged on how correct our performance was.  Evolution is how we understand how the dog (and we) process information and how we transmit it to the dog and how they in turn give us their response and feedback into it.  SS's dog Ranger can't be pushed into a down.  We know that is because opposition reflex tells him to resist and he was pushed in a way that allowed him to escalate his response back to the point of being non responsive.  SS through the help of her TD found a way to get him to WANT to do the down on his own.  That's evolution in how you perceive what is going on in their head and how you react and modify your behavior to effect the result.  Style differences would have you amping up the amount of force you would use to down Ranger.  So yes, many older training methods are incorrect.  Old school schutzhund ob was put a pinch collar on a dog and bang him until he responded.  He either learned through avoidance to the pain of the pinch or he washed out.  This is now bad training.  At the time it was all anyone knew but we have since evolved in our training. Of course not all old training is bad but a good rule of thumb is that if the TEACHING of something involves force, then you will be met with resistance and it is a poor choice.

2. Utility dog serves human as a guard, seeing eye, search and rescue etc, so it isn't wrong to think of a dog as a servant to his owner and be treated so, but ofcourse humanely without torturing etc, correct ?

It's not wrong, but I believe it is outdated.  Serving to me is equated with it's close term servitude which is defined as, completely subject to someone more powerful.  I have no use for this mentality of dog ownership.  They shouldn't be a subject, they should be a partner, not an equal, but they should have input.  Using your seeing eye dog as an example, he has to make decisions independantly and at some point he will have to tell his owner what to do, i.e. don't cross the road.  If he is subservient, where does he gain the confidence to counter his owner's behavior.  If he has learned that the owner will FORCE him to do something he doesn't want to do, why should he run the risk of that wrath by getting in conflict with his owner.  Even more so true with a S and R dog.  He has to learn to make decisions in his tracking behavior.  If we use old school punishment on him or we force him to be submissive or subservient to us, then how does he earn the confidence to make decisions.  After 20 years of tracking dogs, I can tell you emphatically that punishing a dog for making a bad decision at the corner on the track is the fastest way to develop a dog who refuses to track.  When someone dominates a dog for a bad decision, more times than not the dog's take away is to not make a decision at all. 

3. A dog should understand and accept human as his master, he is to obey and submit, right or wrong?

Absolutely not.  This is old school thinking at it's finest.  He is not to submit.  A dog who submits is a fearful dog.  How would such a dog ever do protection work?  Even in the obeying mentality should he be mindless and obey to do something that could hurt him or another?  We ask dogs to work in protection against a helper or a decoy depending on the venue we are involved with.  He has to listen to his team mate but what if I'm an officer and I tell him down and then the bad guy takes off/ hits me/ pulls a weapon.... should the dog stay down regardless?  Not the good dog.  Even in a family situation I tell one of my dogs to go lay down and he does, but when my rowdy 2 year old tries to ride him like a pony, he's allowed to stand up and walk away.  He is not submissive to my children.  He would never hurt them but he is allowed to get away from them as he desires and he doesn't have to listen to them either.  What purpose is there in a dog obeying a child? (not to be confused with children who train, that's a different topic).

4. Amongst dogs, mother teaches and corrects its puppies by biting and hitting them, but not so hard to injure them, so why is it normal and acceptable from Mum dog to do that but not from human owner in training?

This is incorrect as well.  There is much more communicating that goes on that we as people miss before the popular muzzle grab that we all like to reference.  The part you and most people miss is how long do you hold the muzzle for?  What is the transgression that caused it?  I have never seen a wolf or a dog hit another dog as a form of punishment.  The other piece of the puzzle that we miss in those interactions is that to avoid the punishment in the first place, the offender is free to leave the area before hand and avoid it from happening.  We deny them this ability with our leashes and collars and fenced in back yards.

5. Some dogs accept forceful correction with hand without affecting their character negatively, they are hard in nature, is it still wrong to correct such dogs with a push by hand from owner ?

What you are describing is resilient, not hardness.  A truly hard dog will stand up for itselt to the point that it will fight back against perceived unfairness. And we are now talking about dogs.  Mature individuals who I will assume for this discussion, are already trained in what is expected and have made a conscientious decision to not do what they have been trained to do.  This is light years away from correcting or forcing a pup near the fear imprinting stage of his life.  A resilient dog can take some corrections if they are fair and clear.  If they aren't, no matter the dog, at some point you will destroy who he is.  You have to understand a few things to be successful as a dog trainer. 

1.) You have to teach before you train

2) The dog must WANT to work

3) The want is up to you the trainer to instill in the dog.  You have to find a way to present the exercise so that the dog wants to perform it in the manner that you are asking.

4) At some point you will need to instill discipline to the task and this is an art form and can't be put in any formualic expression.  You don't discipline puppies anymore than you would a year old child.   You will do best by looking at it through the dog's eyes and keeping your emotions out of it. 

 

Does this make sense or are there some parts of it that I didn't explain well enough?