Training pup to remain in "down: position - Page 6

Here are a few photos of Wyn and her GSD's. She also traveled to Germany and interviewed The Captain's wife about her husband's development of the breed.

No you did explain them perfectly, only thing I did not understand is:

1.) You have to teach before you train

Wow, those dogs are smiling and posing for the camera

You have to teach the concept of what you want to the dog first.  In the OP's example, he is teaching the down by using food to bring the dog into the down position.  He is linking the command of the down with the action of actually laying down.  This part of the teaching he has accomplished.  The second part of this teaching exercise is what he is working on, keeping the puppy in a down.  The puppy completes the first part but has no clue that it is supposed to STAY down.  The teaching is incomplete, not because he is doing anything wrong, but because the normal progression is that you have to teach the dog to hold any position after it has reached that position. 

Think about this for a second....if the command is down and as soon as you down, you get a treat to reward you for downing what would you do?  Jump up right away to a) get your treat and b) put you in position to be told to down to earn another treat.  (this is seeing it from the pups eyes).  So now we have to teach him to hold the down position.  Correcting him or forcing him is the wrong action on our part because, HE DOESN'T KNOW WHAT'S EXPECTED OF HIM.  He's offering a behavior that has worked in the past and now we go and change the rules on him.  Now it's not go down, it's go down and stay down.  We have to teach him that through one of several methods that show the puppy that he will get what he wants he just has to give a slightly different offering of behavior. 

When I was the OB leader for the 4H dog project I would often tell the kids that dog training is nothing more than teaching a dog a new position just so we could mess it up for them later.  We tell them to down and stay there.  Now get up on command.  Sit and stay there, now come when I call you.  Standing is bad, you have to sit everytime I stop and when someone approaches you, now stand for the exam.  It takes lots of time to teach all these conflicting positions and thoughts to a dog.

Later, when the dog is mature in his head and he is secure in his commands, the day will come where he will be told to down and he will decide to refuse.  Then we will introduce a correction that he understands, that is fair to the mistake he is committing, that will show him that he must have discipline to the task and do it every time that we ask.  We hold our end of the bargain up by making it worth his while AFTER he has shown us that he will do it.  That is the training phase that makes everything reliable.  We have to instill discipline into them but only after they have been taught clearly what it is we expect.

Pushing on a puppy is a form of correction and he has no idea why he is being corrected or how to turn the correction off.  These all have to be taught before you can correct. If you don't then he resists instead of complies and you get SS's Ranger.

Does that clear it up?

Yes, thank you so much

THe very first time I saw a man who had been a K9 trainer in the army strong arm a german  shepherd and use brutal force to train or to tell the young dog he had with him I almost came apart on him... I told him..sorry but I will not sell you one of my pup.s..HE was at my gate, to answer my phone call about selling him a pup..HE was at that time a constable in the local Sheriff dept..HE ask me how do you know your Gauda will rise to the occasion and can be trained for what I want...I told him Because I bred him,  I raised Him , I have trained him and I can show you in 6 minutes ...HE said well I can show you how it is done..WHEN he took a 1yr old pup out of his pu truck and walked to my gate and he kicked it in the side with his sharp toed boot and the dog did not ignite, I almost laughed under my breath , and then he yanked the dog up off the ground by his neck and yelled some command and dropped it back down then he picked up a stick in my front foyer to my gate and acted like he ws gonna hit him..the dog then bared his teeth...

I told him, no thank you , I am not interested in selling Gauda..

The old style Kohler method the FORCE Training   use to be very common.. Now it sickens me ..

Yes we have come to our senses about how to motivate a dog to want to work and want to please his master or his handler...DOGS know who has their heart at hand... WE also know there are men and women in our profession of dog trainers that can read a dog and can train a dog to the ultimate top degree of success..

Command,  correction(2 second response) and Praise....I have always found teaching the down is very easy...quite early also..

guess I will go out tonight and see if Cheuui will down for me. and see how many days it takes to get him imprinted for debut!!........I may have forgot my touch>>>>>lol

You must teach before you train is absolutely correct. How do you think a pup has any clue to chase if you do not run or run if you do not give him something to run for.. and the list goes on and on.. I believe a pup who is free like an Eagle to learn his instinctual abilities with OUR GUIDANCE is one of the best candidates you can have for training in the sport.  I warn people to be careful what you let your pup learn...it is harder to undo wrong than to teach right.  I also tell a new pup owner , to not feel weird acting like a clown to get your pups attention to do what you want done...whio cares what the neighbors think !!!! They are not the person bonding with that pup.

YR

I have always found that it helps to teach two separate ways of "stopping where you are until I release you", which is by

differentiating between "Stay"  and "Wait".

Teach "Stay" first, with the eventual release being you walk to the dog, then (preferably standing with the dog on your left,

both of you facing in the same direction) you give your 'release' command, dog gets up and gets rewarded.

Teach "Wait", leave the dog lying down (or sitting or standing), after as long as you can get the dog to stop still, call the dog

to you.

Eventually this sinks in to the point that not only do you have a Stay that lasts long enough to  'pick up' the dog in an Obedience

competition, but while you are exercising the dog off lead, you can stop it at any time and distance and from any angle, to either

get it to return to you, or to allow you, for instance, to catch up, put the lead on, etc.

In IPO there is no stay command allowed.  My personal preference is to teach the stationary exercises (sit, down, stand) static and then add them in later in motion.  For an emergency stop I almost always use the down. 

Now we are talking differences in style where there is no right or wrong.  We are all talking about teaching and there is no force in any of this.

IMO it's a exageration that kneeling down next to a puppy, placing hands on its withers, gently pushing it back down as it tries to rise while petting it and telling it what a good dog is a terrible way to train. I've never trained a dog that resisted by pushing back and in a very few sessions the dog was reliable. It worked for me and isn't that what we were talking about in the first place?

Anyway, back in the day when Wyn was training dogs, the Koehler method was accepted as THE best way to train a dog. Now few I know use it exclusively anymore;some still use a modified version. Where I live now I have access to 4 OB clubs. I've been to sessions at each and those trainers each train almost every exercise in a different way. There are very successful trainers in each of these classes and some are extremly competitive. 

You're entitled to your opinion, but it is still force that's not subject to opinion.

It's also not opinion that you have no way of knowing that when you tell someone to do that, that it won't escalate into more than what you consider gentle.

Regardless of all that, it's still bad training because you are not teaching the pup to offer any positive behavior, You've skipped right past the teaching phase of training and are now correcting his behavior by pushing him down.  At best you are teaching him to not fight back when you push him "gently" around.

When you lose your words and all you are left with is getting physical, you have lost and you will never reach the potential that the dog once had.

Here is a video of a dog who was taught right from a young age and had both food and ball used in his training.  His heeling picture isn't technically perfect, but his joy and attitude of being part of the team with his handler is what we should all strive for in our training.  This dog wasn't pushed into anything, he was taught how to offer behavior to earn his paycheck. 

You will never get this kind of picture by shoving them "gently" around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CGdi7r5DZQ