Training pup to remain in "down: position - Page 7

Bzcz, just wanted to repeat what I said at the start: Ranger had NO training when I adopted him at 3 years of age. He didn't even know how to walk on a leash, and had certainly never been taught to down. I think he knew 'assis' (sit, in French) and had been taught to take a treat gently, but that was about it....

He spent most of the first 3 years of his life tied to an 8 foot chain. I was pretty much starting from ground zero with him, but he was a very fast learner. Within a few days (with the help of a prong collar, as he had learned to pull against his flat collar) I had him walking on a loose leash as if he'd been doing it all his life. He has never failed to amaze me with how fast he learns new things.    Why he gave me so much resistance with the 'down' I am not sure, but I do know his owner likely abused him. His parting advice to me was "If he gives you any trouble, just show him a shovel!" 

(won't even get into the whole if he knew a command then he had training debate)

Your point being????

I've used him as an example of a dog who's oppostition reflex was cultivated to the point that he resisted all attempts at forcing him to down.  Forcing him didn't work, and that you run the risk of recreating that behavior in another dog by trying that same old outdated idea of forcing a dog to do something.

Oh my goodness. just read your add on edit to your post and can't believe you haven't figured this out for yourself already.  A dog who you yourself claim is compliant and a fast learner has a complete refusal to down to the point that he will pass out from lack of air (your words)  You honestly think his aversion to this one command wasn't caused by bad training somewhere? He will listen and comply every where, who learns new thing so fast and easy, but on the down command he flat out refuses and this is what?  Genetic?  A boy thing? 

Not buying that for a minute.  He's telling you with his behavior and you didn't see it, but you had an inkling, (Why he gave me so much resistance with the 'down' I am not sure, but I do know his owner likely abused him.)   It's not a new thing for him. 

My point is he did not learn the opposition reflex as a result of being forced down when a puppy. 

I had 2 female GSDs prior to him, adopting one at 5 years old and the other at 9 months. Neither of them had been trained to down. I used the same methods to teach them and did not have any problems.

Of course, my training methods are now light years ahead of what they were back then, and I'm still learning... 

 BTW, you obviously didn't notice the winking smiley after the 'guy thing' comment...

And how do you know that?  you weren't there.

I know it because he had NO clue what that command meant, in either French or English, and I also know because I am STILL in contact with his former owner, who is a neighbour to my mother!   He may have developed resistance for some other reason, but not from that!

For instance, the owner originally tied him up with a choke chain, which was allowed to grow into the flesh of his neck...     Might have had something to do with the pain/treatment of that injury. I can only guess.

Or you can listen to what your dog is telling you. 

Sunsilver I think you are missing bzcz's point, Ranger didn't have a problem with the down because of what happened to him as a puppy, you were the cause of bringing out the oppositional reflex in Ranger by trying to force him to down. It is easy to force a puppy because you are able to overwhelm the oppositional reflex but you see the fallacy when you do it to a dog that has the power to resist. Your tracking trainer gave you the correct method for teaching a down. I taught the down with my ten week old puppy by getting down on one knee and extending the other leg out and then luring the pup with food under my extended leg until she had to down on her own. I  do not give commands and leave it to the dog to make the decision when to stop obeying a command. I will not push the dog beyond it's attention span, I will release the dog with a marker and reward with food or play so the dog learns to wait for me to make the decision. I increase the duration of a down by throwing food between the dog's front legs. I will come back to the dog while in a long down at variable rates and say good platz and toss more treats between the dog's legs, I will remind the dog to platz as I leave, leading with my right foot.

I don't wish to get off topic, because this one is supposed to be about teaching something to a puppy,

but it is worth contributing to the debate about methods that training an older dog, which has had no

training or very little, or a ham-fisted version,  can be entirely different and more difficult than teaching

a youngster.  Pups are all eagerness to learn;  adult dogs can display a good deal of resistence.

ARrgggh... you make me sound like a ham-fisted idiot!

!) Using force was a last resort when everything else failed.

2) The methods I used WERE successful with the two previous ADULT rescues I'd trained, who also did not know how to 'down' when I adopted them!

3) bzcz was the one who said (or at least, I interpreted him as saying) the oppositional reflex was caused by someone trying to force Ranger down when he was a puppy. All I'm saying is he resisted my efforts, my other two dogs, who came from similar circumstances, didn't.

Hundmutter, yes, ofthen harder to teach an adult dog. The 9 month old was the biggest challenge, as she had a much harder temperament, a high energy level, and was easily distracted. She was also very smart, and often used the smarts to get into trouble!

I agree, Hundmutter, and another thing to consider is that breeders like Strickland purchased, bred, and selected for the type of GSD that was receptive to AKC OB training. GSL's , ASL's. To the best of my knowledge she never owned a workingline line and never trained in Sch. In addition AKC people raise their dogs differently than workingline people who exhibit in Sch or another of the dog sports.. They select against dogs that like to bite anything - a tug, a toy. Biting is not a good quality for the majority of AKC oriented GSD breeders and is never encouraged.  While a WL puppy would be praised for it's desire to bite a tug, an AKC dog that did the same would probably end up in a pet home. A showline GSD selected specifically for AKC OB might respond to a different training method than a working line.  AKC breeders are more concerned about a "softer" dog than most of the workingline breeders I know.  Not saying that's right or wrong, it is what it is.