Intending to get a pup from this dog: Any view points? - Page 9

Not for one second do I doubt that Mithuna ADORES this pushy black-and-tan bitch puppy--THAT I'm sure about.

Before he adds so much as a hedgehog to the household, though, IMO he MUST have this girl 100% ROCK-SOLID in her obedience, and at present this is not the case. If he puts all his focus into getting her work to be unimpeachable, Mithuna can reach a place where she will actually prove to be an asset to the next young dog who joins the household. She's not as misbehaved a dog as some others have had to work through--she's social and stable with the members of her own household, which is an important distinction, and I don't believe Mithuna has had issues with her retaliating toward him when he corrects her for something...she simply sees everyone outside of her immediate people to be something to drive off, and the task ahead is to disabuse her of that notion. If she is inclined to drive away everyone who wishes to interact with her people, chances are she will have the same intention toward a new pup in the mix...and then some, as there will now be intraspecies competition for the attention of the humans. Puppies do get killed in such circumstances.

Formal obedience, and more formal obedience, and still more yet. Her attention to her handler must be unshakeable, even if a brass band full of acrobatic monkeys passes within reach of her snoot...When Mithuna can get that level of control over this girl, reliably, it could only then be possible to begin doing structured bitework with her, and not a moment before.

Mithuna, get Anna to the point where you can place her alongside you in a sit-stay on a streetcorner in NYC, and her focus will remain solely on you no matter what the distraction should arise, and THEN you'll be prepared to start with project New Puppy.

Hexe, Mithuna´s female will never be an "asset" to any puppy, simply because learned behavior doesn´t change the mind of a dog, and a puppy will anticipate the mind, not the obedience.

It´s a difficult situation, I really like "difficult" dogs, but I guess the constellation unexperienced owner/difficult dog is no good match. These dogs are not easy to train, and a lot of experienced people despair while trying to do so.

I really understand why he wants to start with a "fresh" dog, but the circumstances are not to his advantage.
Sometimes we have to deal with the "status quo" = he is unexperienced in case of "no pet" dogs, he lives where he lives, his family loves the current dog = a new dog may be no good idea.

Forgot to mention the "prong collar" affair: He tried to learn from this forum ( back up a prong with a second collar ), and he uses a lightened collar in the dark...
Hund, although prongs are forbidden in my country, all of my dogs worn prong collars outside - I am not stupid, I know that sometimes any triggers are more interesting than any obedience they ever learned. A high drive dog is always able to surprise you, and by then it may be too late.

Sure, Susie, and the Brit 'thing' is to rely on check
chain collars rather than prongs. Even some
people who don't use check collars will use e collars
instead. Unless you really know what you are doing,
it honestly doesn't matter how many 'tools' we have
available to us, there will still be mistakes in use; just
as on the other side of the training arguments there are
some absolutists who think ALL the tools are medieval
torture instruments ! There may still be occasions when
I would use a check collar as a regular thing with certain
dogs, even though I have always preferred not to use a
prong or an e collar; but we have moved on in our overall
understanding of the ways dogs learn and think. All I am
saying is that these days I have got far enough away from
my own history of training, AND from ALL forms of 'compul-
sion' training (in the physical force sense), to mostly be
confident enough in the more modern methods I used over
the past decade or so, with any type of dog. That is what
anyone who is too "used" to using any one method can be
hung up on; there is so often an unwillingness to change,
'cos Change is in itself scary.

What I have been trying to say with this particular thred re:
Mithuna's troubles / queries / attitudes is not "All Americans
use prongs, and all Americans are wrong" (even though
some posters seem to want to interpret my comments that
way) - but that Mithuna is on his first 'working' dog, we know
next to nothing about her 3 pet predecessors or their training
relationship with him, and for the past year and more his
comments have convinced me that he doesn't really know
what he is doing, and what's more does not really want to
be told what he ought to be doing. That is not in the dog's
interest; it isn't in the interests of the public or the veterinary
staff she is in contact with, it would not be in the interests of
a new puppy, and it is not in the longer term interests of him
& his family, either.  His use of the prong - centering on his
excuse that if she does not wear it she will take him for their
walk - was the most recent in that line of issues. Please note, he did not say he was using it as insurance against

the sort of sudden situations you just meant,  he implied it was 'cos she would dictate the pace of the (whole ?) walk...
The more 'difficult' a dog is, the more you can learn with it;
but only if you are really open to learning (which goes as
much for 'modern', less mechanically reliant, training, for
everyone, as it does for Mithuna's situation).  Conversely,
a really 'hard' dog - and I am far from convinced Anna is

one - is generally more likely to be bright enough to adjust - and to usually obey consistently - whichever training

method used on it;  just not using a prong does not guarantee failure in this regard ! Especially when it comes

to behaviour just walking along the street/beach, or visiting the doctor.

Aside :  Y'know, I am really not sure the PSA approach

helps with these behavioural / failure to respond to training type of issues, but that is a whole other story ! (Watch the PSA defenders line up to go OT now ; LOL.)
 

I agree with Susie 100% on her last statement. When she stated, "I know that sometimes any triggers are more interesting than any obedience they ever learned. A high drive dog is always able to surprise you, and by then it may be too late." She hit the nail on the head as dogs do reason and think, even the most well-trained dog can surprise you. If there is any chance at all, why take a chance? How can one know for sure what their dog will do?

Because that one chance still can take the
form of the dog being so hyped up at the
thought of 'fresh rabbit for dinner ' (or whatever
the extreme attraction is) that he will ignore
the effect of the pinch collar anyway, just as
dogs can ignore strangulation by a check ('choke')
AT THAT MOMENT.

Hund,
Did you say somewhere that you actually have used a prong with a difficult or easily hyped dog somewhere? If I missed it, please show me the way? Otherwise, I would have to say it appears to me you don't know what you are talking about.

I bought a chain saw. i never read the operating instructions. I was told by my neighbor about how dangerous this particular model was, why listen? A professional tree surgeon told me to be careful as i had more tool than i needed. Why listen ? because as that chain saw sits in the box it is the most beautiful machine in my garage. I love my chain saw! Well, I started that beast up and climbed the tree that needed a trim and before you know it the chain got bound up and i got thrown out of the tree and sent right to the hospital, poor me. While on the mend at the hospital, my teenage son found the saw and decided to finish what i started. Well we now have have adjoining beds in ICU. Who do i sue?

Student, this is an interesting metaphor, but ...
in reality my neighbour was willing to cut down a tree for me ( our deal: he cuts the tree, and therefor he gets the wood ) - he does have a license to do so ( never forget, we are in Germany) - as the result he was 6 months off his job, the chain saw cut through his finger, damage of bone, nerves, and tendons... I still feel guilty.

Comparing a chain saw to a prong? Lol.
I use both for many years with much success ...never read instructions for the chain saw or the prong, but I'm very good at learning by example.

Thank you guys for giving me >10000 hits per post. And thanks to  Student for recognizing it a few posts earlier on this thread.