Dogs raised together - Page 4

That I think will depend on the temperament of the dogs.

Sorry OP, your topic did contain a two-pronged question but I think we mostly saw the fact that you are talking about two dogs of same sex and similar age group as being the higher risk element you need to consider, and majored on that.

So, will keeping two youngsters together affect their training capacity and their relationship with you ?  IMO there is a very strong reason most good breeders will not sell 2 littermates together to anyone:  the majority of puppy-buyers are amateur, adequate dog trainers at best, so letting them try to raise two dogs at the same time and same age-stage is wishing trouble upon them, as the two just bond with each other and stick the finger to the human in their lives !  Your situation is obviously different but has enough similarities in it that you should be cautious and dedicated to doing it properly if you are going to do it at all.

In order to 'bond' best, you will need to train the two of them independently - that is twice as many sessions as you have to do with one dog.  You would probably find it advantageous to keeping their attention on you if you also exercise them separately, at least part of the time. So that is double 'walkies' as well.  Have you got this much free time to spend ?

If you can dedicate this much, then you WILL become pack boss and you'll get two independent young dogs with sound

basics.  You may even avoid the problems of keeping two together outlined in all the earlier posts !  EVENTUALLY you will be able to walk them and work them in tandem - but you do need that basic 1-2-1 bond FIRST.

In the workplace I described in an earlier post I have run multiples of 2,3,4 young pups - some littermates, some roughly the same in age but from unrelated litters, and some with bigger age gaps - and acheived basic Obedience standards with them.  Which was fine for my day-to-day management purposes;  but I would not put my hand on heart and say any of these dogs got to a point where I could have continued their training to make great working / sports dogs out of them.  Because you just have to be able to put extra time in.

I agree with Kitkat, and Hundmutter to mention a few but i also agree with Bubba. Meaning it can be done and it can be dangerous if you don,t know pack dynamics. Pack leadership as we communally use the word in dog training is an entirely different skill than to be the top dog in a pack. Cause that's what you are, not a human boss but the top dog. Traditional training as human dog relationship is somewhat irrelevant while putting a pack of dogs together. I learned this by observing and working with stray dogs while growing up in south AMERICA. I's very difficult to explain this in a few words, it's more like intuition, feeling. reading body language within the pack, timing, acknowledge and diffusing tensions and  like a dog wood instead of from a human point of view.

Hope you can make some sense of this post, cause when it comes to pack dynamics you can write a book about the subject.

"Thanks for all the great input but nobody actually answered my question , where when two working dogs are raised Together ( meaning almost constant contact ) will that make them doggy despite not being related and having a year in age difference and will that effect their trainability or drive ?? I am the alpha and I have no trouble setting boundaries and being the pack leader"

I've raised several "together" over the years that were worked successfully-age difference is important-to close & you are much much more likely to have issues related to their social status/rank with each other. Related or not doesn't matter as much, imo. So, you have a year apart. Great.

But, in my experience if you allow *constant contact* when the younger is growing up yes it will effect who they form the closer relationship with (other dog v you) & very possibly effect working ability (confidence, submissive behavior, etc). You have to supervise enough & manage so the younger is not made submissive (he can't always lose to the older dog or be dominated). I don't play fetch/retrieve with them together-the older will either get the toy/ball every time or take it from the younger & this can effect they younger later.

The first time the younger doesn't come away from playing/romping with an older dog when I call him/her they are separated & the pups only interaction & fun comes from me until *I* am more important than any other dog.

All of their time together is supervised until I know how the older will treat the younger. I have a couple adults I will put a pup with unsupervised-they are so confident themselves (no need to establish dominance) & great with young things they let a puppy/young dog walk all over them & take all kinds of liberties...essentially raising the pups confidence in the way they interact with them--rolling on back for pup, letting him jump all over them, letting him 'win' a toy/stick, sharing or yielding when the pup wants a drink, not dominating them etc. These guys when tired of pup will walk away & IGNORE any attempts by pup to interact-they won't growl/snap/etc, just totally ignore & continue on with whatever they are doing despite any jumping on them, getting in their face, or such...eventually the pup wanders off & finds something interesting to do. Others, no way would I let the pup be unsupervised with.

I also have some non negotiable rules-roughhousing & running around is for outside (enforced once pup is 4-5 mo old...the adults know better), if a dog has a toy/bone it is theirs-no one is allowed to take or try to take a toy from another & *I* enforce this (this has my adults looking to me when the annoying pup comes to try exactly that since they know I will remove the pup so they don't need to discipline them). If they have walked away from a toy it is NOT theirs any more & is fair game for another to get-so they can't get 3 feet away & rush back to get it or guard it if someone comes to take it.

I also make sure everyone has plenty of exercise-sometimes together (I have 35 acres so a long off leash romp/walk is feasible), sometimes apart. Also important to keep the peace & helps in your/their relationship.

Once everyone is grown I have dogs that can peacefully coexist & some even like to play with each other, but they care more about 'playing' (aka working) & just being with me than each other. Some at this point are together in the house pretty constantly (some rotate in house/kennel)-after they are mature & the behavior I want is set -provided they still get along really well (& with males there is no female in season around! Even best buds have been known to fight over a girl.) And they haven't been suppressed when young so their working ability isn't dampened.

Candace

I would say until you know for sure that the younger dog is one who doesn't need "drive building" you should keep them separated. Young dogs burn energy really fast and until they learn that working with you is actually more fun than playing with another dog, it's not worth the risk to allow them to play and hang out with other dogs. Especially on days when you'll be training them, you need them to have the highest amount of drive and energy which is something that can lack in a younger dog if they're allowed to burn some of that prior to training.

I think it always depends on the picture you want to achieve with your training. If it's high drive, high energy, high competition type stuff, the dog needs to be taught that you are the center of the universe and another dog doesn't always help with that. Sometimes the division of working and playing fields helps with that if the dogs are allowed to have fun together in certain places. Like...if you allow play in the yard, it's not always easy to switch an untrained dog into "training" mode in that same yard, so go somewhere else where the dogs aren't allowed to play together.

Excellent final point BW, and separate space is something I have always tried to find, even at my lower level of training.

Unfortunately not always possible for those with a limit to how many acres they have available, though (thinking more outside the States but some American members too will have a problem with that). 

I read the former posts right before mine : Again .... Everything depends.

What the previous posters have written is true , but not entirely. Everything just depends. As I wrote[ before on subjects ] , in conjunction with many variables , about the individual dogs , the owner/handler , and their living Relationship .

       For example . I had two pups last year. At 10 weeks old , and at their 6 months . They were taught sit , down , stand , come etc together . Bite work simultaneously together. Also simultaneously in the midst of 6 other adults , same thing. Myths : the foolish word of phrase of ' drive promotion'. in scientific terms.. If an animal has the genetic predisposition for certain behaviors what is there that needs to be promoting ? Doing drive promotion . You have to motivate the dog to want to bite and chase . REALLY now !! IMOp , if you have to motivate to a high degree then you are making the dog[s] what it is not !! And - why does working two dogs automatically mean / imply that you are not their center of interaction or making yourself the center ? Do you know how fast a puppy will move to you when it thinks that it might be out done by another puppy . Especially when it discovers that if it doesn't get to you first it loses out !! Same with bite work , a dog wanting to bite ... will not like the fact that another dog has out maneuvered it and it lost it's bite[ assuming it has the genetic make up for the work]! BTW- hasn't anybody here , heard of ' line/circle agitation' ? Please ... what is the difference then of two dogs on leash verses the same concept off leash ??

      Now i don't criticize those that work 1 dog at a time. My point is that , not everything is an absolute and carved in stone. And that does not automatically make 1 dog at a time with you the best alternative. Common sense , I don't let a 16 week pup run like hell with my older dogs , but that is for safety . And true but not entirely: if i want to teach a child or a dog, then I don't teach when they are exhausted for some things. Yet sometimes I do . A dog exhausted is a perfect time to rehearse a long down- with other dogs too. However with a tired dog I don't not rehearse an explosive entry for a bite . ' Common Sense" that is a variable too

       . A young pup, even 16 weeks old ...In a controlled , situation [ no running ] , I will allow in the group of good mentality GS who will aid in my teaching it . I will do bite work with a 20 week pup right with an adult next to it [ BTW out means out and down means down to the adult !!]. The best of all of this : Simultaneously I have the opportunity to teach the puppy , nothing matters but the task , nothing matters more than'our' interaction . I don'/t care if another dog[s] is present . I expect you to learn what is in your best interest , which is our interaction. and us performing a task. If I cannot be more important to my puppy in the face of another dog , or pack , then IMOp I have failed my dog. And I whole heartedly mean that I failed . Place Association ,[ working a dog in a field ] true but not entirely. Because any one can teach a gs to play , to work etc etc anywhere, anyplace and at an anytime. That is , the task learned , is learned as a general association right at the beginning and not a specific located associated task. . Anyone can teach this to multiple or a single dog ! PEOPLE make the issues not the dog. Fun , work , etc can take place any where , any time etc. . The advantage of this BTW , the dogs never ever works well on only one field but not another. Goodness, they will work with you at Walmart as far as they care.

        Now I am not saying or advocating that every one should work multiple dogs together. But understand that is just as possible without causing issues/problems , and sometimes is very advantageous . Of course always with common sense and understanding , your dogs , what you do , why you do it , when , what , how etc. Not everything is an absolute in the dog world .             Much just depends !!!

I'd love a video of you working two puppies in obedience at the same time.

 

And you had them at 6 months together? What happened after that?

Bav Wag.
I don't have videos of the pups at 8 , 10 , 12 weeks doing bite work simultaneously or obedience. However i am glad to share what I can for everyone in verse.

However , or for example , I have two pups simply walking in the kitchen at dinner time. As soon as one looks at me I give them a bit of their dinner . With patience in time the other will look to me and same thing , i give a morsel of it's dinner. This is done with me or them in a static position . Later i do my routine with me or the pups moving. This is the very very introduction to 'Attention" in healing. The pups are being conditioned to give attention to me even as they or I move. This is done off leash , informally at the very first. Do this over the course of a few days and they quickly learn that the one that looks to me first , that comes to me first gets the dinner morsel first. Now I never ask them to do anything. I put the behavior into their minds to do what I want them to do more than I want them to do it. that is the key ... By the time i finish foundation they can't wait , they prompt me for the cue to perform . Such as a the dog coming to me .. I don't describe this as a 'recall' because IMOp with good relationship and training the dog should desire with a passion to come into your body space. On that note the concept is that I allow them to come to me as opposed to dictating that they come. Same for sitting , downing , standing. again 1, 2, 8 dogs .. they all want to do more than i want them to .. they are looking for the green light , the cue more than I want to give it.

Sit down stand .. same principle, luring , shaping forming the behavior is the same with two as it is with just the one. I have two hands, so with pups side by side ,not hard to shape the two . This for me is not difficult. Later i can polish more with exactitude in position etc etc. . Try to understand , i get into the dog's head so much that they never ever want not doing a task as an option.

Disciplining is a topic added to this when the deep deep conditioning / teaching has taken place and the dogs are mature enough.That is a topic for another time. But I will add here that what is equally important is to not let the dogs do things that are counter to what I want whereby they have success. To me equally important is knowing what not to do.

Two puppies , I use 1 or two flirt poles. And the pups tell me what i need to do or don't do. Ditto , two young dogs i can back tie in close proximity , yet with enough distance for bite work , grip work . Not hard here for very experienced people to do what i do . novices yes , experts no.

So this is a QT glimpse. I can't give a two day seminar in one post., but maybe I give to you a little insight.

they are 1 year and what they learned as pups still exists. I never put collars and leashes , unless in public and today still the same. In reality i planned on competing with them as they placed well in show but I became seriously injured and still haven't recuperated. .

You're discussing early manners and house obedience, not sport foundation. I'm glad it's worked for you in the past but I'd love to see the results with dogs raised in that manner. If looking for high level competition...I wouldn't be free shaping to that extent. It's much easier in my opinion to teach a dog the right way the first time, rather than reteaching it later because the sit, down, or focus isn't correct down the line.