The neutering of Trump begins - Page 2

Beetree said, "What I said, was the sky wouldn't fall and it wouldn't be the end of the free world as we know it. The man isn't even in office yet and the doom and gloom is rampant! The crybabies tearing off his name of his sold buildings. They just reduced the equity in their own homes. It is a typical mob reaction and not too far off from what the Taliban does to ancient artworks! Talk about dumb and angry people!"

So we have someone who is calling people crybabies and alarmists turning around and comparing them to the Taliban and the Trump name to ancient artworks that have historical and cultural value. We could go even further and say that Trump is being compared to religious figures and gods. Ironic, especially when the person claims to not support Trump. We also have the disingenuousness of calling people dumb and angry because of their doom and gloom thinking when the fact, and it is a fact, that Trump's message was one of doom and gloom.

And those manufacturing jobs were mainly lost to automation, not foreign nations. But it's easier to make foreigners, such as the Chinese and Mexicans, out to be the Other than it is a robot. Even jobs in China are being affected by automation. Productivity has actually grown while jobs have been lost. The funny thing is, Hillary actually spoke about this but feelings matter more than facts to some.

And that abortion op-ed piece, yes, op-ed piece, used old data and made some non-factual claims. For example, saying that more than 25% of women will have an abortion at some point is false. You can use statistics to make that claim, as they did, but it doesn't make it true. It is true "statistically speaking" perhaps but again that was with old data. The 1 in 3 abortion figure given in the op-ed, by a very biased individual, was debunked a couple of years ago.

Nice try@Noitsyou.

You are familiar with the second definition of the word: ICON? I am sure you are. That is the reference I was making and, yes it is apt.

Yes, I am NOT a Trump supporter: I am a Trump observer. That really is a hard concept for some, but if one believes in a type of Clintonesque skill of compartmentalization, it is entirely possible to achieve.

The American loss of manufacturing is not as simple as you claim. Even with automation, there need to be people. Manufacturing is my DH's livelihood. I have, through him, experienced decades of change withing this arena, more than you, I bet. It isn't just automation that is China's weakness, either. It is quality control and lack of innovation. Those are the areas USA can capitalize on.

You just don't accept criticism very well. I don't see my POV as disingenuous, or Trumps message as doom and gloom, quite the contrary. He wouldn't have won if what you promote was faintly true. Try the fact that he won and she lost, on for size. Those productivity stats Hillary touted were so meager compared to what the country needs to actually recreate the financial stability that was lost within the middle-class. I can hardly believe you want to bring that up.

If you can use statistics to make a point, damn shootin' I will too. And I bet if you asked four random women of childbearing years if any of them had an abortion, you would find one did have an abortion. And yes, there are women who have repeat abortions, doesn't matter if that data was a few years old. It still happens, and will continue to happen because some women accept abortion as a viable form of birth control. It is that portion of womanhood who don't care or never consider what is morally objectionable but only that it is absolutely legal. The morally responsible and intelligent woman knows how to avoid that situation, entirely. The birth control options available for women and men that are available today compared to decades ago when Roe vs Wade first was argued are numerous and easily obtainable. If you can debunk something, prove it.

"Even though avoiding the reasons to have one in the first place makes the most sense.  That is the real objection because people being responsible and moral is just too much for some." - Really Beetree?  I know you are not that simple.  Birth control is anywhere from 60%-90% effective when used properly with the exception of tubal ligation which is 99% or hysterectomy which is 100%.  Also it does take 2 to make a baby so why is it always on the woman? 

"It still happens, and will continue to happen because some women accept abortion as a viable form of birth control. It is that portion of womanhood who don't care or never consider what is morally objectionable but only that it is absolutely legal. The morally responsible and intelligent woman knows how to avoid that situation, entirely. The birth control options available for women and men that are available today compared to decades ago" - Beetree, Again you are not that simple, you seem far too intelligent to be that simple and just WOW. 

I know a few women who are morally responsible and intelligent who had abortions because their birth control failed (they had been on them for years and were faithful about taking them), another was because of the antibiotic she was on, another was a physician who was exposed to disease that causes significant birth defects and yes her fetus showed signs of the birth defect (the hospital did not know the person was infected because family swore he was only diabetic not sick), another lost her job due to company hiring H1-B visa workers as a cheaper wage, lost her husband to a sudden death, her home and savings, and was newly diagnosed MS and had no family, another terminated her 2nd pregnancy for the same reason as the first, non-viable embryo and she would have ended up carrying the fetus both times to full term only to deliver a dead baby.  I could go on with the reasons for first or even second abortions, ectopic pregnancies, incomplete miscarriages (been there), etc.  No, birth control has not advanced much in the last 20+ years, if it had the same funding as male reproductive issues, there would be a pill or something that is 100% effective.  I mean the research that has gone into male erectile dysfunction is astounding, I guess the almighty penis is so much more important and I find it interesting you don't object to your tax dollars covering ED treatments and medications.........

Is your point that men are the only ones allowed to enjoy sex without repercussions?  Should women not be allowed to have sex unless it is within the sanctity of marriage for the sole purpose of procreation?  If so, to stop all abortions, how about outlawing all forms of sex EXCEPT for the sole purpose of pregnancy, if no pregnancy results, then one more attempt is allowed before a full physical for both husband and wife.  If one is found to be infertile, then there is no reason for sex period because marriage is forever and affairs or masturbation are not for the purposes of procreation.  Or is one to follow the dictates of some religions that state if a woman is infertile, it is expected her husband divorce her to remarry and procreate, meanwhile the woman is to be single and celibate.  (I mean the above paragraph is for if we are to delve into the arena of ridiculousness....)

 

Oh Mindhunt, don't talk such SENSE; people are not listening, remember - ROFL.
Not to mention that somehow those women who 'might' be using abortion for less salubrious reasons always get quoted as the prima facie case for preventing ALL women having control of their bodies.

Mindhunt,

Oh puh-leeze. Who would even bother to call it birth control if it was only 60 percent effective? Really? I think I mentioned... intelligent women? Yes, some ways are better than others, and there is almost always a disconnect between using correctly and negligent use that affects the result. I am certainly not going to get personal here, but there are very good methods and not so good methods. An intelligent woman would make an intelligent choice. Yes, there are so many more choices for women, you are wrong about that. I was amazed at the options the teen girls I talked to were telling me about!

See here:
https://www.optionsforsexualhealth.org/birth-control-pregnancy/birth-control-options/effectiveness

The statistics show a rate of 8-9 percent as ineffective on the whole.

See this: https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/unintendedpregnancy/

"Unintended pregnancy mainly results from not using contraception, or inconsistent or incorrect use of effective contraceptive methods."

In 2006, 49% of pregnancies were unintended—a slight increase from 48% in 2001.
Among women aged 19 years and younger, more than 4 out of 5 pregnancies were unintended.
The proportion of pregnancies that were unintended was highest among teens younger than age 15 years, at 98%.
Between 2001 and 2006, the proportion of pregnancies that were unintended—
Declined from 89% to 79% among teens aged 15–17 years.
Increased from 79% to 83% among women aged 18 and 19 years and from 59% to 64% among women aged 20–24 years.
Large increases in unintended pregnancy rates were found among women with lower education, low income, and cohabiting women.
Source: Unintended pregnancy in the United States: incidence and disparities, 2006. Contraception. 2011;84(5):478–485.

"Recent data from the National Survey of Family Growth show no significant decline in the overall proportion of unintended births (live births to women who did not want to get pregnant when they did) between the 1982 and the 2006–2010 surveys. The proportion of births that were unintended did decline during these years among ever-married, non-Hispanic white women. Women more likely to experience unintended births include—

Unmarried women.
Black women.
Women with less education or income."

And I have heard that antibiotic anectdote so often, I have to hold back an eyeroll, that it too, should be common knowledge by now ... I mean, make the guy wear a condom for crying out loud, for a week or ten days. But, well, some just can't let the "moment' go to waste, I guess, you know spontaneity and all that. Of course, to them, getting an abortion is the back up plan.

Before you or others get all outraged, I am not advocating that there aren't real, valid reasons for an abortion, and I wouldn't want that option to be gone. I just can't condone the lazy, devious or thoughtless ones who make such a decision without the thought of any moral aspects, only because it is legal. I checked, and CT is one of 17 states that will pay for abortions of the needy.

People deciding to have sex should not be without responsibility. Is that a bizarre concept in this day and age? The orgasm is mightier than adult thoughtfulness of unintended consequences? Because I can assure you that if someone truly doesn't want to get pregnant or become a daddy, their carefullness and investigation into their options increases 1000%.

And no, to your idea I would condone one side getting pleasure over another; that isn't the point. The point is responsibility for an adult action should have adult thoughtfulness, included.

This is the US answer as an alternate to abortion:

""The United States has established family planning goals in Healthy People 2020 aimed at improving pregnancy planning, spacing, and preventing unintended pregnancy. An objective is to increase the proportion of pregnancies that are intended to 56%. Family planning efforts that can help reduce unintended pregnancy include increasing access to contraception, particularly to the more effective and longer acting reversible forms of contraception, and increasing correct and consistent use of contraceptive methods overall among those who are sexually active but wish to delay or avoid pregnancy. Research also has focused on better understanding pregnancy intention and how it is measured. As one study suggests, “A better understanding of the multiple dimensions of unintended pregnancy also may lead to a better understanding of the consequences of these pregnancies.” (The measurement and meaning of unintended pregnancy. Perspect Sex Reprod Health. 2003;35(2):94–101.)

Hundmutter you sound butt-hurt to me. And it wasn't even your election!

No beetree, it is you who is trying. You compared the Trump name to ancient structures and works that have a significant historical and cultural value. If you simply meant the name had some contemporary value in the marketplace then you would have just said. The funny thing is you mention the word icon, a word which has a religious connotation. So no, your comparison is not apt as you are comparing something of cultural value, something which cannot be measured in dollars, to something of market value. It's like comparing a billboard or the McDonald's arches to the Mona Lisa or the Eiffel Tower.

You also ignore how you compared someone finding the Trump name objectionable, and it is their right to have a say in the place where they pay to live (this is still America, isn't it?), to the Taliban. Hyperbole much?

You call yourself an observer of Trump but it's clear that you are not very good at it as I seem to know more about him than you. The fact you don't see that one of Trump's messages was one of doom and gloom shows that you weren't paying attention. I don't think you are a Trump supporter or observer, I think you are just a contrarian. The problem is that you don't have facts on your side so you come off as a troll.

The loss of manufacturing is not as simple as I claim? Hello! It's not as simple as Trump claims. See what I said about paying attention. I didn't simplify anything; I stated the fact that more jobs are lost to automation than to China and Mexico. You don't dispute that, do you? You however shift the goalposts by bringing up innovation and quality control. What does that have to do with the fact that automation is a bigger problem for the labor force than foreign countries?

Morality? That's a human construct so don't post about it as though it is some immutable natural law. Maybe some women "abuse" abortion rights, so? People drive drunk and speed so should we all lose the privilege to drive? People murder others with guns so should we all lose our gun rights? The Spartans abandoned unwanted babies to the elements. The Bible is full of God sanctioned genocide, death and destruction (as well as slavery and capital punishment for crimes other than murder). We dropped atomic bombs on Japan killing civilians of all ages. We bombed Iraq, killing civilians, some who were children, in order to invade it and liberate it. We allowed the water in Flint to become poisonous to kids. Tell me, what is the immutable morality in all of this? We are willing to commit all sorts of terrible acts against our fellow humans, and nature as well, but we draw a line at abortion. We can drop a bomb on a pregnant woman and that's collateral damage but a woman can't decide for her herself whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term. There is something not quite right about that.

I'm not saying a woman should see abortion as simply another method of birth control but to say that getting an abortion is an immoral act is rather silly. It's even sillier when those who lobby against it in DC are among the most immoral people, by their own standards of morality, you will ever meet. What's moral or immoral? I'm not that full of myself to presume I should be the final judge of that. Maybe you are a better person than the rest of us. Maybe you just think that.

There are more current abortion stats out there, btw.

Noitsyou, don't put words in my typing.

Taking down the TRUMP name was destroying the symbol of the newly elected presidency. The Taliban destroying religious icons was symbolic of their insurgency and new power. You just don't get it because you can't be wrong, and that makes you try harder. I carefully included the second definition of Icon because I knew you would try to go off tangent, because you can't be wrong. I am not ignoring anything, you just can't admit to not knowing everything.

Yes, it is apt because destroying and dismantling an opposition's visual monument is what makes them common, not anything to do with religion for my comparison. I do know what I meant more than what you meant, for me.

You are the contrarian. You never agree to anything. I went throught this already... oh wait you never bothered to read it because, you might have called me an imbecile.

Play your word games about manufacturing. You made your single point with what would be your main point. I brought up my two points of merit, and there isn't a goal post in sight. I know US has automation, EDM manufacturing and CNC controls, how much, where and the rest, I don't know, why don't you post your facts if you have them? Then we might have an intelligent conversation instead of a duel.

I will post about morality as I see it. Why shouldn't modern man have moral discussions? If you don't like it, too bad for you. I am not saying abortion is the immoral act, only that the life being discarded without proper consideration is the immoral act. That has always been the driving issue of dissent, and it hasn't been solved yet, which is why the debate continues. If there wasn't anything of value being lost, then people wouldn't care, period.

Well, if you have better stats available by all means post them. I am doing the stay at home mom, doing a quick google search will have to suffice for the moment style of due diligence.