Blind search exercise comment - reposted - Page 1

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Koots

by Koots on 11 December 2016 - 16:12

West Coast German Shepherd Schutzhund Club

December 7 at 8:58am · 

Yup. To see multiple dogs at the world championships run to the 6th blind, look at the helpers feet for a ball, leave the blind only to come back a second time and do the same thing, not acknowledging the helper at all, only looking for a ball. At the World Championships. Houston, we have a problem.....

"Today’s trainers are increasingly more innovative and effective. Unfortunately some of that innovativeness is resulting in training methods that miss the point of the exercise. As a result, the demonstration of temperament that the test was intended to provide is sometimes missed. In the guarding phase I see more and more where dogs are sitting still and looking at the helper, not with intensity, dominance and expectation but passive and empty of drive. They do not sit and guard the helper from temperament, but watch simply from obedience. It is important to recognize that just “looking at the helper” is not the same as real guarding. Also barking at the helper like begging for a toy is not the same as real guarding. Unfortunately this is increasingly common.

I see more of the use of toys to manipulate the dogs into executing exercises like blind searches and even in the guarding phases. This falsification of the exercises through play and object attraction, displace the actual purpose of the exercise and eliminates the opportunity to see if the dog can work clearly despite the conflict of a helper. The ability to handle adversity, to persevere in difficult condition and remain obedient under distractions is important element in the character of the German Shepherd dog. It is particularly important for dogs that are selected for breeding."

- Lance Collins, excerpt from a 2009(?) Interview.

by duke1965 on 11 December 2016 - 17:12

dare I agreeShades Smile


Q Man

by Q Man on 11 December 2016 - 18:12

Teaching is one thing...Balancing is another...

by vk4gsd on 11 December 2016 - 20:12

There is nothing to stop breeders testing their own breeding stock in the same exercise using more conflict from the handler to assess their own dogs.

It does not follow that the sport competitors have to do the same thing. There are two different agendas.

Breeders and brokers seem to asking Joe public to do their work for them.

You want to test your breeding stock harder, go for it.

Not the job of the public who just want to trial their own dog to do it for you.

I can see why Duke wants everyone on the planet to test their dogs to breaking point. He would go broke breeding , training and testing his own.


by duke1965 on 11 December 2016 - 20:12

VK, Im breeding and testing my own as well LOL
and actually the public is causing this as the public wants pups from podiumwinners,the public wants braggingrights the public wants pups from titled dogs, where every body knows all showlines are IPO3 so whre is the extra value of a Title today

Now many people want a pet at best, so no problems there, everybody is happy, the champ got his studservices, the breeder sold all pups and the people can brag, and the policeman gets himself a good mali-shepherd mix

by vk4gsd on 11 December 2016 - 20:12

Perfect, everyone is happy.

 

 

999.999999 percent of all German Shepherd will never asked to bite anyone anyway.

 

If you need personal protection take a self defence course or buy a handgun, it's less expensive, more effective and more practical.


by duke1965 on 11 December 2016 - 21:12

actually you dont need to go in extremes just have different balance of drives in the dog to make it suitable for both sport and LE

here is one of my dogs I trained and titled to IPO3 , he produced mostly dogs that went to PP and LE also his grandchildren, but also produced many IPO 3 dogs and dogs that went on to compete
training a granddaughter of him myself now in IPO

https://youtu.be/Ddnr8TISAeI

I competed at surprise attack competitions at night with him and scored high

https://youtu.be/0c-bC3u4hFk

just a well balanced dog, social,no handleragression, but civil when asked for



by Gustav on 11 December 2016 - 21:12

Isn't Lance a former top sport competitor and IPO judge? He's' been reading these forums too much and should go see some top IPO dogs.

Koots

by Koots on 11 December 2016 - 22:12

Lance is a multi-time WUSV competitor, and a judge.    He competed at this year's WUSV with his dog Haakon vom Moerfelder Land.  He is the President of West Coast GSSC in the Langley area, close to Vancouver, BC. I am sure he doesn't bother reading these forums - he is much too busy training and helping other club members get their dogs ready for trial.     Wink Smile  I found that bit on my FB and thought it was interesting so would share it here, for people to consider in light of recent discussions.

http://www.wcgssc.com/record.php


by Centurian on 12 December 2016 - 04:12

The Lance Collin excerpt is off base IMop.
IMOp the real issue , not lies entirely* with the training. Rhetorically I put this to the thread : what is IPO and it's purpose. Is it sport or is it real life . Beacuse in each endeavor , the same exercise of a dog going to the blind the performance can be expressed differently.

Also , in Such/IPO , what exactly is meant by 'Protection" , and the expressed definition. IPO / Sport protection , Personal Protection , LE protection... That is to say , should you expect a LE protection view in IPO ? If the answer is YES , then I would say that no longer is synonomous with Sport* . In sport the dog can key on nthe man ... but to look to take the man out IMop takes that out of the realm of sport. Therfore it is not unreasonable and unacceptable to expect Protection be different in each and the bark and hold in reality is not to be the same bark and hold in each . Hence rhetorically should we expect the same picture and perfromance of the dog in IPO , and on that note should we expect the same training ?

Secondly , the notion of drive missing and the lack intensity and dominance : And what drive would that be ? You think because a dog is barking loud and fierce that is the only indication/ prescence of intesnsity and dominance and that is indicative of intense motivation ? Maybe , but maybe not. It may indicate that they exist but the abcense of those behavior displays does not mean that they don't exist. , Believe me if the motivation and goal, I did not use that stupid word drive, of the dog is to control a person , this does not imply that there is lack of intensity , dominance in the dog if you do not see intense bark/hold.

In ring sports there is a silent hold and guard. Believe me these dogs can be extraordinarily intense , exploding with motivation , as well as extraordinarily dominant. I have trained some of my GS in Ring and others IPO. I tell you with certainty , in the bark/hold they were silent , calm cool well disciplined and self controlled. They were just itching for the helper to move and would take him down before he even finished a movementThey were full of dominance , full control of the helpe and his movement and positionas well as intense.

I similarily had a GS that I trained in personal protection same features , calm, cool and collected. And I would add , if he was turned off, and silent , he was still very very intense , dominant , serious and would do much harm turned on. Don't undrestimate a dog with good control to be lacking and deficient.

Another time I trained a dog in stealth , silently , meaning when ann intruder cam to my yard , she was quiet while the others barked. people tended to ignore her because she appeared passive. Again I would tell you as the expression goes this dog was silent but deadly.

So don't understimate a silent guard/hold if you see a GS doing one. It may be more than just 'staring up looking at the helper' . BTW I have seen way to may GS out of control , dirty bites , sloppy frontal postions because a bark and hold was not correctly taught and they had that foolish concpt of creating , drive , such that the dog never learned to control itself. Many times this was also associated with poor obedience. Protection is obedience. Don't knock a silent guard/hold.






 


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