Mastiff Type Heads in the GSD - Page 1

I am sure most of you are aware by now of the mastiff-type GSDs that have become popular in China, and many of you have speculated that mastiff blood has been bred into these lines to produce these dogs. I was browsing through an old thread from 2008 on the database, and found this:

 

These are some of the breeds supposedly involved in the creation of the german shepherd...

 

Genetically, the German Shepherd dog is more strongly related to the Mastiff category of breeds...

 

 

It is a long way back to the early dogs. All who knew them are dead and the dogs which were the fountain heads of the breed have long ago slipped off the ends of pedigrees. Discussing them may seem unnecessary to a present day breeder.

In a sense this is true, but it must be realized that the genes which circulate in the breed today have come down, in most cases largely unchanged, from those fountain heads. Although man has selected and culled in the intervening 90 years or so, he has merely rearranged the genes and increased or decreased the frequencies, he has not changed them. The defects we see today can be traced back to those early dogs...

The German Shepherd Dog: A Genetic History (Willis, 1991)

 

The reason breeders can get mastiff-type heads like the one I've posted below, with just a few generations of close inbreeding is THE GENES ARE STILL THERE!  Heads similar to this have also become increasingly popular in the SV show ring in recent years, and in the case of the SV dogs, there is little doubt that the dogs are pure bred.

 

 

I take your point about the ancient genetics, but I still feel it is a little OTT to suggest that the meatier heads seen in SOME of the SV / modern dogs are "heavy heads similar to this have become increasingly popular in the SV show ring in recent years". Clearly it is physically quite easy for anyone in China or elsewhere to breed extreme heads of this type to fit the image they seek, based on some dogs bought from Germany that have particularly heavy heads; and we have seen a few V rated dogs who have heavier heads than is ideal. But that is not the same as saying the German dogs - particularly most high Show rated German dogs - are ALL now in danger of taking this path. Of course breeders (and judges; and buyers) have to watch what they do, or you end up (as we  did) with poor hocks and over-curved toplines being perpetuated in some stock. But I think showing what this peculiar sub-set of Chinese fanciers are producing is probably not the way to get breeders to make sure they do not produce over-done heads for the future - 'cos they will mostly just laugh at this aberation, and fail to take the point ! Calling attention to 'hating' the excess curve or angulation - with all the hype that has gone on around those - didn't prove successful in stopping some idiots continuing to produce them, did it ? I think there needs to be a radically different approach - majoring on the "stop amending Standard(s), & start getting back to basics", with the sort of definition of correct Shepherds that Susie is always posting. But we need to do that all around our own Show scenes, in our own countries, by plaguing our own Kennel Clubs and Breed Clubs - not on here, where we are just talking to a few of the mainly already converted; and not through joining in the super-hype chorus as promulgated by journalists with vested interests (eg the makers of "Pedigree Dogs Exposed".   JMHO.

Hund, the sole reason for my post was to point out how fluid the GSD genome is. With all the different breeds that went into creating it, it's quite easy to take it in any direction you want, without outcrossing.

And yes, the Chinese did EXACTLY what you said - they purchased SV dogs with heavier than usual heads, and used them to help create the type of dog I posted above.

I don't like the overdone heads, but that wasn't the point of my post. I just saw that chart on another thread, and the lightbulb came on - THAT'S how the Chinese were able to breed for those heads, and the massive bone, and get them so quickly!

I've seen pedigrees for some of these Chinese dogs, and it surprised me just how quickly they were able to do it, assuming the peds. were accurate.

As for 'similar'...don't tempt me...I WAS going to post pictures, but decided not to! [backs away from keyboard...]

A quick Google search also provides the suggestion and real possibility of the use of photo retouching with a tool called liquefy. While I don't dispute there are heavier, unattractive heads sometimes being bred, the extremes in time and what these photos show, do beg closer scrutiny.

Also, the designer chow x Gsd cross is another possibility.

Bee, when this topic first came up on the database, and the possibility of photoshopping was raised, someone found videos of the Chinese dogs that made it obvious the photos hadn't been altered. And this was quite a few years ago, when I doubt anyone would have the skill, tools or money needed to alter videos!

Whole point of my post was and is: those heads are THERE because it's in the GENOME!

I'm willing to bet DNA tests would prove these dogs are not mixes. I've seen enough mastiff-type heads on SV dogs, especially dogs that were the ancestors of the Chinese dogs. I have a photo of a V-rated SV dog in my files with pronounced folds above its eyes, an apple domed skull with a pronounced central furrow, drooping flews and upper lips and enough of a dewlap on its neck to put a turkey to shame!

FYI There are current website photos of some of these Chinese dogs half-way down Page 2 of the "Can anyone identify this dog ?" thred, running now on Main/General/Latest Posts.

The whole photoshopping thing occurred to me too, but there are an awful lot of them, on many different sites (more than the 5 shown in this Forum), so it is a bit unlikely they have all been morphed ?

Sun, I tried to understand your graphics, so I googled the names -
Buffon´s Natural history and the "diagram of relationships" was published in 1792 - no German Shepherd Dogs around during that time, and for sure no scientific analysis possible.

The "canine genome" by Ostrander/Wayne is not understandable for my school Englisch, but I don´t think they tried to proof that single breeds "were involved in the creation of the german shepherd", they proofed that several breeds go back to several "types" - makes sense, because all dogs do have common ancestors, and you will find similarities.

I understand that they want to say the breeds are "related", some more, some less, but that doesn´t mean that those breeds "created" the German Shepherd Dog.

Am I right? There are moments my English really sucks.

Susie, 'genome' means all the genes that make up a particular animal. It can also refer to all the genes present in a group of animals, in this case dogs.

I think you have interpreted it correctly. Your English doesn't suck! Buffon's diagram refers to shepherd dogs in general, not the GSD. The closer a dog is to the shepherds in the diagram, the more closely it is related. The other diagram also shows how different groups of dogs are related.

Malcolm Willis was the one that said the GSD is more closely related to the mastiff group of dogs.
I believe the diagrams are also from his book, which I haven't read.

If the idea I'm trying to get across seems strange, just think for a moment: both the great Dane and the Yorkshire terrier came from the wolf. That's how much variabliity there is in the canine genome!

 

PS to Bee - some of those Chinese sites had videos too, of them being 'shown' in their parallel-to-official type showrings (ie not Chinese Kennel Club, whatever that's called). Not so easy to play around with images from live filming, I'm sure you'll agree; those heads exist.

The problem I am having is the same pictures shown years ago are still the only ones being found today.

My search for Chinese Mace Bulk GSD breeders, as they are being called, comes up empty.

There is nothing to discount another breed was introduced, either. I remain unconvinced that these extremes are the preference of someone who might have paid top dollar for importing a winning VA stud from Germany.

Yes, there is diversity in the canine species. Maybe... it is possible within the closed gene pool of the current state of the GSD, but I am very skeptical, still. I think it would need more time, more subjects and no doubt there would be health issues and shorter lifespans that would show up, too.

This type of dog being bred makes no sense. If it is a fad then it has died along with the Tibetan Mastiff, which are sadly being abandoned when once they were the most expensive dog paid for, ever, a short time ago.