Natural drives - Page 5

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Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 05 April 2020 - 14:04

Duke, I have not said you did train this. You have entirely missed my point; the non W/L pups displaying the same behaviour were not trained to do it either.

emoryg

by emoryg on 05 April 2020 - 14:04

Duke, It’s good that you have five of those puppies at the same time. 

I do have an off topic questions.  I was going to PM, but thought others may be interested in the information as well.

After the initial evaluation and imprinting, do the puppies you breed for law enforcement stay at your training facility throughout their early development, or do you foster them out and have them returned at a later date?

 


by duke1965 on 05 April 2020 - 15:04

some stay with me, some go to trainers and come back between 6 and 8 months of age, some are sold to people who raise pups, this was litter of 8, 1 female went to breeder in finland, one male sold to trainer, one to raiser and 5 in my kennel


by duke1965 on 05 April 2020 - 15:04

this is the female i run on, will be kept for breeding

https://www.facebook.com/herby.willems/videos/3110575945672475/

another male   https://www.facebook.com/herby.willems/videos/3098955420167861/


yogidog

by yogidog on 05 April 2020 - 15:04

Just looking at herby very nice drives good full strong grip nice attitude 👌

by ValK on 05 April 2020 - 16:04

valk, disagree on the first statement,


why?
excess for bite and use of bite as last resort - two edge of extremes. between them lots of variation in levels. every dog has own reservation for how far to tolerate or in another words it's like every dog has own red line, after crossing of which kick urge to bite.
my first dog was this kind and was kept in such mental state through all 10 month. embeding through training into that dog the traits of the rage, high suspicios and untrust  would be quite irresponsible act if a future owner of that dog at 10 years age.
whatever, after two or so years when we both grown up and folk in club saw that i'm doing well with my dog, there wasn't problem to change this.
quite harsh and cruel technic involved but as i said - if dog is mentaly and physicaly strong, there are nothing to be impossible. in such case you just sort of lower down dog's threshold of tolerance.


by duke1965 on 05 April 2020 - 16:04

valk, you write::::i can turn this dog into outstanding fighter even if there aren't initial strong willingness for bite.

you cant develope something that is not there to begin with, at best make it look like something similair, basically, my point of topic


by Centurian on 05 April 2020 - 17:04

Duke .... There you going again twisting what I state and what I write. My first post , my first statement I wrote : " this seems to be a wonderful puppy " . I made some points and I leave it at that .

You did the same to Valk too . I agree with everything he stated and it is sound, But you argued with him too . He was not criticizing the pup either and made some valid points.


And this is a point too . Drive - Duke define what you mean by Drive . [and this is why I write that word is so inadequate it is not even funny- I tell people I work with , cars are driven not dogs !] . Maybe you are thinking this different than we understand it to be . If you mean Motivation .. Motivation is not a drive , it can be manipuated , as it can be increased or decreased by our input to the dog. But innate predispositoned expressed genetics can never be changed because they are fixed. And that is what I think you were trying to illustrate with the puppy- it's innate propensity to bite .And so ..the dog has a very nice bite .. it seems as I wrote a wonderful pup .

So I forget about that stupid word 'drive ', everything we do in that sense has a 'drive ' , a motivation . But not everything we do is an innate predispostioned genetic behavior in life - it is an autonomic reflex . A bite is the expression of a dog's Temperament and Mentality , it's genetic make up . So you were trying to show us and you feel that more breedings should have dogs with good innate dispostion genetiically to bite . many of us agree with you on thatb point . I believe Valk does as well as myself . Motivation is not a genetic trait . Motivation is not an biological autonomic response. Forexample for those reading to uncerstand, ' the willingness to work with a handle'.. that has not to do with motivationalone because that behavior, to work with the handler , is based on innate predisposition genetics -meaning it does not have to be trained. So yes , I told you that I agree withn youn that we want some peconditioned innate behaviors in a dog .

But you cannot understand that I was not talking about your puppy . I wass making known that some innate instinctual behaviors fall with in normalcy and that some do not . Some we can gain insights into even in young puppies about the nature of their mentality , temperement and behavior. You miss many points that I made having nothing to do with your puppy . You are so hung up on the word drive that IMOp you lose the tree in the forest. Yes we want a dog , a pup that hangs in there and perserveres due to it's genetic make up . As I wrote there is a qualitative and a qualitative aspect to behavior and traits and we can use that understanding when and how to evaluate a puppy . A GS dog that will not ever come off a bite - that dog is genetically flawed , it has the wrong temperament , it's gentic make up is fautly . Now I did not say the pup in the video was like this . I was replying to xPyro , that you can begin to see if a dog had a certain bent . No I do not expect a baby pup to immediately , in a blink of an eye, to leave a bite when it is on the bite . That is foolishness , that would not be a realistic expectation. That is one end of a spectrum . But I do expect a dog at some point in time, and I don't mean tomorrow , that the dog will think of letting go of the bite , especially if that gives the dog advantage- That is the other end of the spectrum- to not expect the dog to not let go at all . How many times do I have to sate look at quntity and quality of traits and behaviors ! Again I look at the quality and quantity of the expressed trait or behavior. I was shedding some light about this to xPyro ... had nothing to do with the pup in the video.

Duke I am goinf to repsond to somebting you wrote . A lot of people are going to get in to some very deep serious trouble with viewpoint . This is not an opinion this is an outright FACT : a dog should never ever ever takes it upon itself to bite someone unless told to do so . There are exceptions such as teaching a dog that it does not need a cue from you if y or your children you are being attacked . The premise also being that this is taught in a controlled maneer to the dog such that in certain situations the dog will automatically attack .Again the dog biting without a command is a preconditioned taught secanrio in which the dog clearly understands what it is doing. In this repsect if you teach the dog an automatic response - still you have give , in an abstract way to dog the permission to bite .

Duke it is not my busines who you sell to , what you sell, why you sell to .. my platform is to share dog relaged thoughts and infroamtion with peole on this forum such thatn they think for themselves about their dogs. not my pplace to tell anyone anything .. I don't mind people disageeing with me with a logical , factual reply . But Duke you twisted what I said and twisted what I was writing about apart frorm your puppy . So Duke to each their own .

BTW Duke , Raiser is not right all the time either ... as much as his writing is renowned and admirable !



Koots

by Koots on 05 April 2020 - 17:04

Duke - you sold a pup to Helmut Raiser? 'Nuff said.... :)

by duke1965 on 05 April 2020 - 17:04

raiser may not be right all the time, but in this case he is 200% right, ill leave it at that





 


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