How many times would be the maximum to see an individual dog/s in a 7 generation pedigree ? - Page 3

Pedigree Database

 

by ValK on 30 November 2020 - 12:11

as i understand from your description there was obvious line breeding through the certain dog (Alf vom Kornersee) about 40 years ago.
i' m not sure what your concern is?

Alf was born in 1983 and had most active use as a stud dog in non commercial environment under supervision and with mating selection recommendation from knowledgeable and experienced district wardens.
you should be aware - in former DDR breeding of GSD wasn't based on fame of dogs but on the dogs qualities and their potency to pass these qualities to descendants. looking at pedigrees info, you will see many dogs, who today would be considered "no name" dogs but who was more productive in breeding than dogs with champion title.


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 30 November 2020 - 12:11

He none the less had some dogs in the pedigree that were 'famous' in DDR terms, eg they presumably rated their Siegers and Siegerins ? Cross-Wall, both Grafental and Haus Iris are good kennels which chose to use him, so he must have offered something worth having. Photos of some of his many progeny show a mixed bag on phenotype, so one can assume it was more likely a temperament or working aptitude that he was hoped to be prepotent for.

I would still think that if a dog nearer today has Alf K so many times in its pedigree, it would look somewhat OTT; and, depending on one's 'take' on how genetics works in practice (rather than mathematics), it is anybodies guess just how much of the desired characteristic(s) have been inherited down to the present day, ie how successful this attempt has been. Without knowing some of the offspring, one guess is as good as another; and as I've said, what is very important is that any such linebreeding needs to have been VERY careful with the health aspects, otherwise it is of next to no use breeding an excellent working dog with all the right qualities, if it is going to cost its owner a fortune in vet bills, die young, and/or pass on dreadful problems in its own progeny.

by ValK on 30 November 2020 - 19:11

Hundmutter

sure. anyway, you can find at least one sieger or siegerin somewhere in pedigree of any GS dogs, albeit it means nothing.
being champ in DDR didn't meant breeders would line up with their dogs for matting.
if you check out closest two champs Condor and Xito, their known today descendants was 504 and 402 accordingly in 3 generations, when Alf had nearly 3000 albeit he didn't caring any prominent title.
why he was so popular, i don't know. from his appearance he looks typical and average for that time.
his kor. assessment 5547/33 is good for civilian applications but he definitely won't pass the test for use in services, which includes offence and deference requirements.
given that time ('80th), perhaps he was beside of being healthy potent producer he also excelled in sport performance. sort of preceding version of somewhat later one dog known as Lord :)

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 01 December 2020 - 04:12

ValK:  Maybe. :-)    Don't see how you can be in the head of everyone breeding dogs in 70s & 80s Germany, to know that NOBODY had the sneaking thought that they might be better off breeding to a DDR Sieger (however tightly controlled breeding was), but still ...

Fact remains that - as you say - an awful lot of people used Alf as a sire.  There must have been something on which the resulting 'fashion' was based (not forgetting Alf himself didn't get such 'high' awards); if he was a 'fashionable' dog to use, even on the rumour of some advantage he might give, its hardly difficult to see why THIS breeder fastened on him as maybe the answer to his prayers of producing a strain of 'better' dogs, if he used him often enough. It really, for purposes of this thred, does not matter whether he was correct or not - and I'm assuming 'not', really, 'cos surely we would all have become aware of such a line of 'super' canines - it is enough that we see he ended up with one of the most inbred and backmassed families of dogs we could imagine.

Perhaps some lessons to be learned for future breeding practices ?


K9HAUS

by K9HAUS on 01 December 2020 - 08:12

Thank you for the feedback and replies guys.
Valk
Dukes
Koots
Hundmutter 👍
Much appreciated and value your opinions and views

Mike D

by Mike D on 01 December 2020 - 11:12

7 generations is a long ways back.

a well known stud-who is linebred on a lot-even if accidently:

Fero: Was linebred (if looking at 7 generations) on Hein v. Richterbach:

7,7,7-7,7,7,7.

Hein was LB on Klodo Boxberg: 6,6,6,6,6-6,7,7,7,7,7,7 !!

I think we need to outcross often. But even then if you are breeding for some "type" you're probably linebreeding-especially if you're looking back to 7 generations.

K9HAUS

by K9HAUS on 02 December 2020 - 03:12

Mike D
There's dogs that have much more linbreeding much more than Fero.
Am talking about as much as x19 times
Is this a good thing or not ?
This is reference to DDR lines

Mike D

by Mike D on 02 December 2020 - 15:12

In general not that much, or even what we see with Fero is too much.
Now days there are plenty of good dogs to choose from that would limit the need for that tight of LB.

Which is not to say LB is bad on it's own. I just had a litter LB 3-3 on Drago Eqidius. Drago was LB 3-2 on Aly-a Troll son-Fero GS so plenty of common blood there.

But other than the Drago linkage there isn't much.

I think that if a breeder is finding that much commonality then it's time for a healthy outcross. If it can't be done without losing the "DDR" marketing hype, well then it may be time to find a new marketing ploy.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=3013131-halo-z-tammik
 


Koots

by Koots on 02 December 2020 - 17:12

Mike D - nice breeding! 3-3 is my fave linebreeding - not too close, but close enough to have influence, IMO. Plus, that Nero is a really nice dog.

K9HAUS

by K9HAUS on 03 December 2020 - 03:12

Mike D in the West working lines as you know have much more dogs to mix and match today.
Even 2 decades ago there was many notable dogs to linbreed on, although dogs like Mink and Fero would be most notable.
Only have very minimal knowledge on West lines.
But there is many that branch from dogs mentioned above that much I know
I like the pedigree of Halo 

Some older style Czech dogs through Frankie Enrembri. 

Drago has what seems a solid score in the Czech rating system 5/55👌






 


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