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by vonissk on 17 November 2012 - 22:11
Then that shows where you my friend haven't a clue. This thread is actually about the breeding of dogs who are not physically sound, much less being bred against the standard and trying to make a change. If you think that knowingly breeding dogs that carry epilepsy and not health testing for HD/ED is BS then you really don't have a clue. There are some of us who are very passionate about this breed and all that goes with it and want to change the registering body's practices for the betterment of the breed.............I hope you never have to go through the dissapointment/heartbreak of buying your dream puppy and realizing 6 months later that not only had you been duped and now you must decide what to do with your medical nightmare. Much less think of what the poor dog must be going through. Just my 2 cents................
by Hundmutter on 17 November 2012 - 22:11
Vonissk, thank you.
Blackfurbabe, I don't know how you got involved on a previous occasion
because your contribution to that thread was deleted by the mods.
Please do us the favour of not undermining what we are trying to do here.
I am not sure whether Abby has ever been a breeder ... she will no doubt
ably defend herself anyway. I can tell you - and anyone else interested -
that I never have been. So strike that theory.
AllanF I am tempted just to say: Please read the whole thread, from the
begining, and the associated thread on Meredyke Machk's short life. I
promise you it is not as convaluted as it looks, and will reward your time.
Your other posts strike me as intelligent contributions to this board, so
I am confident you will appreciate what we are doing.
However - I will try to summarise briefly:
These 2 threads are a result of a number of conversations that have gone
on here for a while before either started itself. Machk's started when his
owner wanted to share her grief about losing a very young dog to Epilepsy;
and others have described that experience too; plus feeling cheated by
uncaring breeders, being out the purchase price of the dog etc.
This here thred started because Abby reported an aggresion problem
being experienced by someone she met. The common denominator was
these were dogs bred specifically for the 'pet' market, bred in non-standard
colours because they sell well. And on some known problematic common
ancestry. People thought the British Kennel Club ought to be doing something
to crack down on backmassing that ancestry, to reduce the cases of sick dogs.
I'd had dealings with the KC on the topic area in the past and have offered to write
again, using the factual connections we have established in these 2 threds. End of.
Linda Swift.
Blackfurbabe, I don't know how you got involved on a previous occasion
because your contribution to that thread was deleted by the mods.
Please do us the favour of not undermining what we are trying to do here.
I am not sure whether Abby has ever been a breeder ... she will no doubt
ably defend herself anyway. I can tell you - and anyone else interested -
that I never have been. So strike that theory.
AllanF I am tempted just to say: Please read the whole thread, from the
begining, and the associated thread on Meredyke Machk's short life. I
promise you it is not as convaluted as it looks, and will reward your time.
Your other posts strike me as intelligent contributions to this board, so
I am confident you will appreciate what we are doing.
However - I will try to summarise briefly:
These 2 threads are a result of a number of conversations that have gone
on here for a while before either started itself. Machk's started when his
owner wanted to share her grief about losing a very young dog to Epilepsy;
and others have described that experience too; plus feeling cheated by
uncaring breeders, being out the purchase price of the dog etc.
This here thred started because Abby reported an aggresion problem
being experienced by someone she met. The common denominator was
these were dogs bred specifically for the 'pet' market, bred in non-standard
colours because they sell well. And on some known problematic common
ancestry. People thought the British Kennel Club ought to be doing something
to crack down on backmassing that ancestry, to reduce the cases of sick dogs.
I'd had dealings with the KC on the topic area in the past and have offered to write
again, using the factual connections we have established in these 2 threds. End of.
Linda Swift.
by Abby Normal on 17 November 2012 - 23:11
Blackfurbabe
I like Linda have never been and never will be a breeder. I also do not personally know any of the 'players' in this sad situation. I do not know who you are allied with, but it is clear that you do not seem to recognise the significance of the detriment that these nasty breeding practices represent to the breed and to individual dogs and people. I sense that maybe you are linked in with coloured breeding or breeder somehow, but that you actually have quite limited knowledge. If that's the case, go away and really learn about German Shepherds, their history, problem lines, health problems in the breed and then come back and make some relevant rather than flippant comments. Vonissk said it well.
AllanF - HD & Epilpesy. The title of this thread best describes it. When I met someone with two dogs from this breeder. In itself that was nothing of note (except perhaps for the temperament, which I then wondered whether it was inherited). What caused me alarm was when the people mentioned that the breeder was having a 'chocolate' litter, then I asked who the breeder was because I wanted to check them out. It suggested to me that she was using the term to make money out of the uninformed public of an undesirable colour which doesn't exist, the correct colour being liver. I was also concerned because I knew of a liver import which had a bad hip score. So I looked into this breeder a bit more when I got home and was appalled by what I found with the lack of health testing etc and posted this thread out of sheer frustration. Others added information to the thread, revealing the correct pedigree name of the dam of the current litter of *chocolate* pups allowing the hip score to be checked and revealed to be 74. The information that was offered by others was all checkable through the KC health test website, so not gossip as blackfurbabe would suggest. The breeder has a couple of pedigrees on her site with names blanked out which I found highly suspicious. She has bred from lines with epilepsy, that is now openly admitted on her website. At the same time we had the very sad thread about Meerdyke Machkt running, and there are common links between the lines used which produce epilepsy.
Ultimately, as Linda said, the best bet is to read the thread through from the beginning. It isn't convoluted really. It is simply revealing another breeder who breeds only for money at the expense of the dogs and the people they are sold to and who perpetuates health problems in the breed. You will not find any of her dogs in this database.
The good thing is that it allowed other connections to be made and in conjunction with the Meerdyke Machkt thread it has inspired Linda (Hundmutter) to petition the KC again, about the continued use of these problem lines that keep being used by certain types of breeder and keep producing epilepsy.
Look at Meerdyke Machkt's thread. Check out the posters user name baileyboy and see that he has posted some user comments.
HTH !
I like Linda have never been and never will be a breeder. I also do not personally know any of the 'players' in this sad situation. I do not know who you are allied with, but it is clear that you do not seem to recognise the significance of the detriment that these nasty breeding practices represent to the breed and to individual dogs and people. I sense that maybe you are linked in with coloured breeding or breeder somehow, but that you actually have quite limited knowledge. If that's the case, go away and really learn about German Shepherds, their history, problem lines, health problems in the breed and then come back and make some relevant rather than flippant comments. Vonissk said it well.
AllanF - HD & Epilpesy. The title of this thread best describes it. When I met someone with two dogs from this breeder. In itself that was nothing of note (except perhaps for the temperament, which I then wondered whether it was inherited). What caused me alarm was when the people mentioned that the breeder was having a 'chocolate' litter, then I asked who the breeder was because I wanted to check them out. It suggested to me that she was using the term to make money out of the uninformed public of an undesirable colour which doesn't exist, the correct colour being liver. I was also concerned because I knew of a liver import which had a bad hip score. So I looked into this breeder a bit more when I got home and was appalled by what I found with the lack of health testing etc and posted this thread out of sheer frustration. Others added information to the thread, revealing the correct pedigree name of the dam of the current litter of *chocolate* pups allowing the hip score to be checked and revealed to be 74. The information that was offered by others was all checkable through the KC health test website, so not gossip as blackfurbabe would suggest. The breeder has a couple of pedigrees on her site with names blanked out which I found highly suspicious. She has bred from lines with epilepsy, that is now openly admitted on her website. At the same time we had the very sad thread about Meerdyke Machkt running, and there are common links between the lines used which produce epilepsy.
Ultimately, as Linda said, the best bet is to read the thread through from the beginning. It isn't convoluted really. It is simply revealing another breeder who breeds only for money at the expense of the dogs and the people they are sold to and who perpetuates health problems in the breed. You will not find any of her dogs in this database.
The good thing is that it allowed other connections to be made and in conjunction with the Meerdyke Machkt thread it has inspired Linda (Hundmutter) to petition the KC again, about the continued use of these problem lines that keep being used by certain types of breeder and keep producing epilepsy.
Look at Meerdyke Machkt's thread. Check out the posters user name baileyboy and see that he has posted some user comments.
HTH !
by Hundmutter on 18 November 2012 - 21:11
Footnote:
I have today traced back a new, Australian, White Shepherd
pedigree posting, and guess where I ended up, after a detour
through US dogs and Spanish dogs: Bricketwood, Debylyn, Heidi's
Cuddle n Kiss, and on and on ...
I have today traced back a new, Australian, White Shepherd
pedigree posting, and guess where I ended up, after a detour
through US dogs and Spanish dogs: Bricketwood, Debylyn, Heidi's
Cuddle n Kiss, and on and on ...
by Abby Normal on 18 November 2012 - 22:11
You wonder how many white pedigrees don't have these lines somewhere, and of course the lines have spread into blues and other off colours. So often it doesn't take long to come across these lines.
We must also remember that Bricketwood have now changed their affix to Riveryare, so that is a name to look out for in pedigrees in the future. Changing the name doesn't change the lines and what they may carry, it appears to be an attempt to conceal it, since the current affix has become so well known for being implicated in the production of epilepsy. Unless that is they start afresh with completely new lines, but that remains to be seen. I suspect that all that will change is the affix.
by allanf on 19 November 2012 - 01:11
Hundmutter
For a number of decades last century, Australia had an import ban on GSDs. This was largely a result of the strong influence of the sheep-graziers lobby, and the perceived threat of GSDs becoming wild and destroying flocks.
During the import ban, there was a small population of breeders of earlier GSD imports. Some of the more notable kennels were known to throw whites on a fairly regular basis, and there are still some breeders who continue with these earlier lines, although these lines are becoming faint. I don't know how far back in time your recent findings go, with sources in the UK.
When the import ban was lifted in the mid-1970s, most of the new stock was sourced from various parts of the old British Empire including the UK. My late parents bred a bitch who was one of the new generation of Australian-born GSDs, and her lineage could be traced to Pakistan/India. The pup that I had, suffered from DM in the last few months of her long life, but was otherwise strong and healthy, and seemingly oblivious to the fact that her back legs would no longer function properly. That older-style, flat-back, big GSD is also becoming a thing of the past, as newer imports are being sourced directly from Germany.
However, I did know an older-style dog (probably with lines to the UK) who suffered from Epilipsy. I am no longer in contact with the owners because the dog was put to sleep a few years ago. I do know how heart-breaking that was for the owners.
So, yes... we still have some links to the "old country".
For a number of decades last century, Australia had an import ban on GSDs. This was largely a result of the strong influence of the sheep-graziers lobby, and the perceived threat of GSDs becoming wild and destroying flocks.
During the import ban, there was a small population of breeders of earlier GSD imports. Some of the more notable kennels were known to throw whites on a fairly regular basis, and there are still some breeders who continue with these earlier lines, although these lines are becoming faint. I don't know how far back in time your recent findings go, with sources in the UK.
When the import ban was lifted in the mid-1970s, most of the new stock was sourced from various parts of the old British Empire including the UK. My late parents bred a bitch who was one of the new generation of Australian-born GSDs, and her lineage could be traced to Pakistan/India. The pup that I had, suffered from DM in the last few months of her long life, but was otherwise strong and healthy, and seemingly oblivious to the fact that her back legs would no longer function properly. That older-style, flat-back, big GSD is also becoming a thing of the past, as newer imports are being sourced directly from Germany.
However, I did know an older-style dog (probably with lines to the UK) who suffered from Epilipsy. I am no longer in contact with the owners because the dog was put to sleep a few years ago. I do know how heart-breaking that was for the owners.
So, yes... we still have some links to the "old country".
by Hundmutter on 19 November 2012 - 08:11
Well the lineage that traces back to the Asian sub continent must also
trace back before that, to German dogs - or Germany VIA somewhere
else, most likely England.
Dogs in England implicated in this whole backmassing thing are
traceable to the German dogs they came from. One problem was
always in the difficulty of identifying epileptic dogs among those 'first' dogs.
As I said somewhere else, what is important is what has been done since,
to move either away from or towards those afflicted dogs and producers.
Wherever people are based, if they have built and rebuilt their lines on
white or blue dogs that have those producers in, and inbred on them,
to keep colour / coat / shape, the gene is in there, it only takes yet another
'same lines' mating to bring two copies together and there you can get the
illness.
trace back before that, to German dogs - or Germany VIA somewhere
else, most likely England.
Dogs in England implicated in this whole backmassing thing are
traceable to the German dogs they came from. One problem was
always in the difficulty of identifying epileptic dogs among those 'first' dogs.
As I said somewhere else, what is important is what has been done since,
to move either away from or towards those afflicted dogs and producers.
Wherever people are based, if they have built and rebuilt their lines on
white or blue dogs that have those producers in, and inbred on them,
to keep colour / coat / shape, the gene is in there, it only takes yet another
'same lines' mating to bring two copies together and there you can get the
illness.
by allanf on 20 November 2012 - 05:11
Hundmutter
Yes. Every GSD should trace its origins to Germany - one would hope. I look at the heads and faces of some of the prize-winning SV dogs and wonder if someone, somewhere along the line, has surreptitiously crossed with something akin to an Akita or the like.
From your earlier post regarding a white shepherd in Australia, I couldn't tell how far back you had traced the pedigree, and wondered aloud whether it was from the early twentieth-century imports which were known to throw whites during the import ban, or the wave of imports from the UK and Commonwealth in the 1970s after the ban.
The third, more recent option is the White Swiss Shepherd Dog. Previously, white-coated German Shepherds could not be registered with the ANKC, and most were culled. Some were kept and a group of fanciers formed outside the auspices of ANKC. The group fractured. Anyway, a few years ago the ANKC followed the FCI and recognized white-coated German Shepherds as a separate breed called the White Swiss Shepherd Dog. As far as I can tell, the Australian-bred white Shepherds were exclude because they could not fulfil the pedigree requirements. In 2009 the ANKC stated:
So, anyone interested in showing and breeding White Shepherds under the auspices of the ANKC had to import their stock.
Yes. Every GSD should trace its origins to Germany - one would hope. I look at the heads and faces of some of the prize-winning SV dogs and wonder if someone, somewhere along the line, has surreptitiously crossed with something akin to an Akita or the like.
From your earlier post regarding a white shepherd in Australia, I couldn't tell how far back you had traced the pedigree, and wondered aloud whether it was from the early twentieth-century imports which were known to throw whites during the import ban, or the wave of imports from the UK and Commonwealth in the 1970s after the ban.
The third, more recent option is the White Swiss Shepherd Dog. Previously, white-coated German Shepherds could not be registered with the ANKC, and most were culled. Some were kept and a group of fanciers formed outside the auspices of ANKC. The group fractured. Anyway, a few years ago the ANKC followed the FCI and recognized white-coated German Shepherds as a separate breed called the White Swiss Shepherd Dog. As far as I can tell, the Australian-bred white Shepherds were exclude because they could not fulfil the pedigree requirements. In 2009 the ANKC stated:
http://www.ankc.org.au/News.aspx?id=191The only dogs born in Australia that can be registered as White Swiss Shepherd Dogs are those dogs resulting from the mating of two imported White Swiss Shepherd Dogs that have been registered with the ANKC on their Main Stud register, or further generations resulting from such matings.
So, anyone interested in showing and breeding White Shepherds under the auspices of the ANKC had to import their stock.
by Hundmutter on 20 November 2012 - 10:11
Allan - White Swiss are recognised as a distinct breed by the FCI; to qualify
for FCI registration etc the dog has to be 3 clear generations registered
as White Swiss Shepherds.
Quite a lot of dogs ppl would prefer to be reg'd as WSS cannot be because
their ancestry is either wholly reg'd GSD or a partial mix from before the FCI's
final decision in 2011. But they are all GSDs basically.
There are many 'families' of whites which, while they go back to the same wider
pool of german ancestors (including in all probability some carriers of
epilepsy among them), have not been inbred much on those ancestors
or indeed any UK dogs also in there. This is particularly true of American
white lines, some of which are pretty 'ancient' now. Unfortunately there often is
still inbreeding and back massing on their own dogs in those pedigrees - so if
they have epilepsy or any other similar problems, they will show up at some
point in those lines. Many of these have also been bred for money rather
than the good of the breed. Can't do anything on all fronts at once, though !
Akita X ? Well, you wouldn't find out through registered ancestry, they are hardly
likely to get in the stud book. I think the small ears, like soft or drop ears, are a
genetic hangover from the variety of german sheepdogs from which the GSD
was started.
for FCI registration etc the dog has to be 3 clear generations registered
as White Swiss Shepherds.
Quite a lot of dogs ppl would prefer to be reg'd as WSS cannot be because
their ancestry is either wholly reg'd GSD or a partial mix from before the FCI's
final decision in 2011. But they are all GSDs basically.
There are many 'families' of whites which, while they go back to the same wider
pool of german ancestors (including in all probability some carriers of
epilepsy among them), have not been inbred much on those ancestors
or indeed any UK dogs also in there. This is particularly true of American
white lines, some of which are pretty 'ancient' now. Unfortunately there often is
still inbreeding and back massing on their own dogs in those pedigrees - so if
they have epilepsy or any other similar problems, they will show up at some
point in those lines. Many of these have also been bred for money rather
than the good of the breed. Can't do anything on all fronts at once, though !
Akita X ? Well, you wouldn't find out through registered ancestry, they are hardly
likely to get in the stud book. I think the small ears, like soft or drop ears, are a
genetic hangover from the variety of german sheepdogs from which the GSD
was started.
by allanf on 20 November 2012 - 11:11
Hundmutter, Akita have erect ears, although much more forward-sloping. I was actually trying to illustrate the inexplicable radical change in the head of the GSD with shorter muzzles, more pronounced stops and domed skulls. A rottie X would have been would have been a better illustration except for the ears, and the country of origin is the same. Anyway, I was basically agreeing with Blitzen's and other's assessment which has been well-and-truly mulled over. https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/forum.read?mnr=516137
Sorry, I really can't contribute anything useful to this thread. :)
Sorry, I really can't contribute anything useful to this thread. :)
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