Breeding without titles... open discussion, not an argument - Page 16

The more we go in-to and through this thread and the respective posts, it is clear that the majority here are for a 'working' dog that should be the ideal as a breeding prospect - I assume that the same majority would be as firm on health requirements - in order to theoretically produce offspring of sound minds and bodies.

The Romans went by the theory of 'divide and rule' and this is what is happening to the masses of GSD followers World-Wide; they are being divided and ruled by 'non-profit' organizations who couldn’t give a rats ass whether the dogs work and even criminally not care whether the breeding stock has the skeleton minimum of health certification. In fear of losing 'valuable' numbers of 'breeders' if stringent rules were put in place...they (non-profit organizations, as are Kennel Clubs) see two things:

a/ How to attract as many as possible owners/breeders to their paid membership stock

b/ Register as many litters as possible for the sake of registration fees

c/ Organize events so the stock of members can prounce around after having paid hefty entry fees

d/ Organize working trials for the entre fees with as little as possible logistical headaches

e/ Make sure that the said events are sponsored well...and bring in much wanted injections to the

f/ Introduce new gimmick events as happenings and crowd pleasers so that the sponsors are pleased with foot-traffic


The SV has been fighting this for years!!! And it has managed to fend off many external forces which would love to do away with ALL of the stringent regulations in place (however laxed they may seem to some on this thread).


For many years, the SV has been fighting with Animal Rights Organizations who are pushing for the scarping of ALL working trials/tests and examinations as they (Animal Rights Orgs) see it as CRUELTY TO ANIMALS!!!!!
 
The majority of Kennel Clubs World-Wide have absolutely no regulation for breeding –whether it be for health and/or work…many have no limits on number of litters and/or allegeable age for dog parenthood…let alone making the BREED SURVEY mandatory!!!
 
I will repeat myself…but this time expand on the issue of the times have changed from when Capt. Max von Stephanitz, himself fighting - starting with herders within/and all parts of the, at the time around the end of 1800’s Germany - to UNITE them all throughout Europe so as to agree on a common standard for the breed!!! NOT an easy task!!!
 
Then came the wars, and the further disbursements of the breed and its ideals…according to the standard!!!


Most Germans who still managed to survive the wars whilst being in the position to continue their breeding programmes, found themselves herding less, and coming to the serve with their dogs now fighting and not protecting as they would be as Shepherds…and perhaps having to do both especially when they were deployed to the fronts!!
 
Needless to say, there was much hunger by the observers of this breed, to get also involved in its expansion!!!
 
The growth World-Wide of the people interested to be involved and partake in events and rearing/training with and these dogs – was astonishing to say the least…I might add; during difficult times!!
 
The German shepherd was and is the National symbol of Germany almost!!
 
Today we are witnessing a world-wide economic recession…but in times gone by, it was not so, and the German Shepherd whilst the most popular of dog breeds, created its own worst enemies; the profiteers, and experiment specialists of breeding to the Standard.
 
Coupled with, society beco

...Coupled with, society becoming to an extreme very technologically advanced where our children forget to go out and play but stay indoors with all sort of in-house entertainment.
Dogs became a chore!!!
 
And to others some pocket money from their hobby, whilst a good number have been making a lot of money!!
 
To get seriously involved and create a team of people who are experienced but more to the point have the interest of the breed at heart, are very few!! In order to get close to them, you have to invest!!!
 
And the new generation coming through with a desire for involvement are less and less; which goes hand in hand with much reduced entries and participants at events of the breed.
 
No one will argue that its not bad to work the dog to its limits of character strength…it is a pleasure to watch…but I am an advocate of no split of the German Shepherd, but a UNIFICATION of common standard. One Breed – One Name.
 
So if some of you feel the dogs are better and harder evaluated then what is in place…work to have your evaluation tests formalized…let’s not forget HGH is a title, and is very SPECIFIC and requires a SPECIAL DOG!!! It is a working TITLE.
 
If the presentations and organization needed to implement and logistically organize at events; I will predict that it/they may be also introduced – if nothing else – as a source of income…but hay if its good for the breed…why NOT!
 
If not, then continue with your more specific evaluations and since they are considered by some to be more TESTING, then it should be no problem to just breeze by the existing ones and make it known of how much more your dogs can do!!! It may pull some interest!
 
Some have had to raze the bar for their own betterment and involvement with the breed when their countries at the time had and maybe still don’t, have many breeding regulations!
 
The idea and our target should be eradicating breeders who are a danger to the integrity of the German Shepherd.  

Many good points to an extent by many. Bottom line in my eyes is "can the dog do what is expected of him or her?" Some individuals expect/want more for/from their dog; to each their own. But to say that one is better than the other because of a title is wrong. (But I believe the majority here do not think that way).

I can only speak of service dogs, EDD, (Explosive Detection Dog) training, paperwork, certification. The amount of paperwork is outrageous (in my eyes but needed) this is paperwork that no way in the world can you "pencil whip" it or "I'll get to it at a later date" it doesn't work that way. The training, amount of time traveling, practicals, evals, certifications and so on. And just the plain ole upkeep of the dogs and training the non-certs for future certification/work. For DoD, Level III MWD certifications you need a 95% to certify. Bottom line is to keep your job and to work! Your eval/cert is 10 "hides" well guess what? If your K9 finds 9 out of 10 hides your out of a job. Go home. 95% = 10 out of 10 "hides"!

I can't speak for the other "service dogs" or the ones that work for a living but I would believe their stories to be somewhat similar. Now, to acknowledge that some don't belong? True, but that could be for numerous reasons....... primarily humans.

..."that some don't belong?..."


I say they all belong...take strong steps and get them formalized with inventors of the breed!!

example; ED was discovered as adisorder outside of Germany and later implemented and inforced by the SV!!!

It was a good thing!!

 ""   

"don't belong"....... sorry, my point was that yes, some service dogs don't belong. For the couple of individuals that stated that, I agree. I've seen PSDs that wouldn't engage the perp, seen handlers that were afraid of their own K9 and I've seen handlers that could'nt "read" their K9 or didn't let their K9 "work" on their own when the K9 knew more than they did. That is what I meant by "primarily humans" letting those things happen.

No no no Jeff, your doing it all wrong.  If you have to train your dogs to be good police dogs, then they are crap.  Stop breeding crappy dogs that need to be trained.  My dogs come out of the womb knowing how to bite people and how to track criminals.  In fact, my dogs are so good that they don't need leashes.  They just know which is the bad guy and automatically bite them with out any training or commands.

IPO/SchH dog learns to bite sleeve.  That is what they have done over and over again.  When they go for a courage test, they aim for the sleeve, because that is what they have been trained to do.  So now, in Duke's example, all of a sudden they are running at a helper that doesn't have the sleeve.  Dogs have a hard time extrapolating ideas.  It doesn't matter how much the dog want to bite, its never had the experience running at some one and biting a suit.  To say that these are crappy dogs is quick and poor judgement and shows lack of understanding of dog training.  In your theory Jeff, a police dog should be able to bite a real person with no training because the police dog should love to bite.  Thats just not how it works.

I know many have an issue with Schutzhund because it only test for prey drive.  I train with a guy who trains police dogs.  He says looks for dogs with high prey drive because he sees them as being the best at criminal apprehension.  I guess that makes sense to me.  I see high prey driven dogs as those wanting to go bite a fleeing criminal or wanting to find a criminal.  Versus a dog with more defense that is waiting for the fight to come to him.  Another person with experience training police dogs care to share?

MFH , the dogs never got to see the suit , they backed away when he rattled his stick at 60 feet away

what will be the next step , dogs only willing to bite a gappay sleeve if they are trained on that , and not on other brands

its not what they are trained , but about their mental luggage

Living in Australia where 99.9% of the breedings are untitled, there is no benchmark whatsoever that determines a dog's compliance with the breed standards or if it's an example of the breed that should be reproduced, in other words, you can breed what ever you like good or bad. Every breeder of working line GSD's maintains they are suitable for work, yet nothing has formally been tested to determine this and many of the working line breedings are absolute garbage, some lack enough prey drive to chase a ball where some are so unstable in temperament with unpredicatble aggression, you cant work these dogs without a muzzle as a saftey measure if they come back up the leash. Then there is the fear biter the security guys like who will light up easily on the end of the leash and look tough and intimidating with no protection training, but they all claim to be breeding an excellent working dog?.

There a some ancestory as police dogs, but that said, many Australian states are using showline GSD's that have been donated to the police, often fear biting pets that people couldn't handle, so police dog ancestory doesn't account for much, security dog ancestory is worse, there is no testing requirement there often pets are used in secuirty for a deterrent image then there is the 0.1% of Schutzhund club members titling dogs and breeding from titled stock which are extemely difficult to buy a pup from these breeding unless you know someone well enough or belong to the right purple circle for the opportunity to own one.

The point is, breeding with untitled dogs makes it very easy to breed crap dogs and as a potential buyer vulnerable to the breeders determination of the ancestory greatness that you know damn well doesn't exceed much more work testing than some sleeve work in the parking lot, how is this concept of unitled breedings maintaining the breeds integrity or allowing any opportunity to research the working ability of the bloodlines available for purchasing a good working pup? 






 

Good dogs come CONSISTENTLY from knowledgeable breeders  with good stock. period! You need BOTH components. Knowledgable breeder understand the lines, work dogs in some capacity, and have experience in reading dogs to know the difference between trained traits and natural traits. Good stock is necessary because the dog will NOT pass the training or the title,(whether it is a sport title or POLICE title) to their progeny....they will only pass the genetics. There are Sch dogs that shouldn't be bred, there are Police dogs that shouldn't be bred. That's where the knowledge of the breeder has to be vast to make good decisions.