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by dAWgESOME on 11 July 2012 - 20:07
I agree with above comments from Blackthorn & Gustav.
And in reagards to the Working line // Show line thing..... Good luck, search this site a litte and you'll see
Its like the never ending argument if ketchup or mustard is better on hot dogs
by Gustav on 11 July 2012 - 21:07
Thx Dawgesome, I think I am giving a fair and impartial assessment to all lines in my reply. Prolly to chagrin of some...loll
Troopscott, I think you have a chance of getting a wonderful dog out of this breeding.
by hexe on 12 July 2012 - 05:07
I agree with those who have said this breeding has good potential for producing a nicely balanced, attractive dog that will be well suited to family life as well as dog sport on an entry level (and quite possibly well beyond--the dog's limitations might be only that of the handler).
The dam certainly is easy on the eyes, and if her temperament checks out, and she's got the necessary health clearances, the lack of a title is of lesser concern, especially if she's being worked in other venues. She should AT LEAST have hips & elbows certified as normal by OFA or a similar organization (and not just prelims, either--I mean actually certified by one of the evaluating organizations).
The 'hole' in the pedigree is actually on the sire's side, in the 5th generation, which wouldn't concern me overmuch (that far back, that single bitch won't have much influence, even if she's a bat-eared wooly marmoset)...though I was able to fill in the sire's side for Quitte via WIN-Sis, so the hole is that much smaller.
If someone felt *really* driven to find out who Quitte Sutu-Hali's dam was, contact info for the breeder, Gerhard Kranich, can be found here: http://www.kranich-schaeferhunde.de/Unkas.html and here: http://www.dvag.de/gerhard.kranich/datenschutz/
Of course, I wouldn't expect to pay the same amount for a pup from a breeding such as this as I would for one out of a breeding where both parents are titled and breed surveyed--but if the price is right, and you like the pups, you could do far, far worse than this pairing.
Edited to add: Careful, Gustav...you could get drummed outta the 'REAL hard, serious workin' dawg' fraternity, saying anything nice about a working/showline cross!
The dam certainly is easy on the eyes, and if her temperament checks out, and she's got the necessary health clearances, the lack of a title is of lesser concern, especially if she's being worked in other venues. She should AT LEAST have hips & elbows certified as normal by OFA or a similar organization (and not just prelims, either--I mean actually certified by one of the evaluating organizations).
The 'hole' in the pedigree is actually on the sire's side, in the 5th generation, which wouldn't concern me overmuch (that far back, that single bitch won't have much influence, even if she's a bat-eared wooly marmoset)...though I was able to fill in the sire's side for Quitte via WIN-Sis, so the hole is that much smaller.
If someone felt *really* driven to find out who Quitte Sutu-Hali's dam was, contact info for the breeder, Gerhard Kranich, can be found here: http://www.kranich-schaeferhunde.de/Unkas.html and here: http://www.dvag.de/gerhard.kranich/datenschutz/
Of course, I wouldn't expect to pay the same amount for a pup from a breeding such as this as I would for one out of a breeding where both parents are titled and breed surveyed--but if the price is right, and you like the pups, you could do far, far worse than this pairing.
Edited to add: Careful, Gustav...you could get drummed outta the 'REAL hard, serious workin' dawg' fraternity, saying anything nice about a working/showline cross!
by Gustav on 12 July 2012 - 10:07
Lol, I just want to be in the fraternity of knowledgable dog people of any lines....smile...I like all types of dogs and breeders that emphasize keeping a German Shepherd a working dog. Don't care the color, the line, or the breed.....but can't stand non working German Shepherds or breeders of that type, because the beauty of the dog is in its utility!
by troopscott on 13 July 2012 - 02:07
If I decide on one of these puppies Hexe what would a good price be? I visited the breeder to see the mother and she was great as far as temperment goes. Took my daughter and they played and played while my untrained eye checked out the puppies. I will be doing what I can to learn as much as possible including joining a local schutzhund club to make sure I am not limiting what the puppy learns.
by yellowrose of Texas on 13 July 2012 - 02:07
Might I make a suggestion?
Find a Schutzhund club FIRST.. GO visit...talk to head trainer, and some people with knowledge..ask questions...ask about breeders they KNOW>
HEALTH checks next after you find a breeder...YOU Have to ask the breeder for paperwork ahead of time before you see pups...
ANY pup will take your heart.
Get some knowledge first then go find a breeder to look at litters.
YR
Knowledge first may prevent a heart ache..and loss of lots of time and sleep with a new pup.
Find a Schutzhund club FIRST.. GO visit...talk to head trainer, and some people with knowledge..ask questions...ask about breeders they KNOW>
HEALTH checks next after you find a breeder...YOU Have to ask the breeder for paperwork ahead of time before you see pups...
ANY pup will take your heart.
Get some knowledge first then go find a breeder to look at litters.
YR
Knowledge first may prevent a heart ache..and loss of lots of time and sleep with a new pup.
by yellowrose of Texas on 13 July 2012 - 02:07
Might I make a suggestion?
Find a Schutzhund club FIRST.. GO visit...talk to head trainer, and some people with knowledge..ask questions...ask about breeders they KNOW>
HEALTH checks next after you find a breeder...YOU Have to ask the breeder for paperwork ahead of time before you see pups...
ANY pup will take your heart.
Get some knowledge first then go find a breeder to look at litters.
The male on this mating I would not hesitate...but bred to this female not sure. Can this breeder offer you another litter out of same male with another female.???????
Bandit is gr father to several of my partner back home...both her female out of ISKA and the dog out of Germelhaus..wonderful working lines and Cuzko is under Dave Kroyers training so I know this males heretitary traits..
Knowledge first may prevent a heart ache..and loss of lots of time and sleep with a new pup.
YR
Find a Schutzhund club FIRST.. GO visit...talk to head trainer, and some people with knowledge..ask questions...ask about breeders they KNOW>
HEALTH checks next after you find a breeder...YOU Have to ask the breeder for paperwork ahead of time before you see pups...
ANY pup will take your heart.
Get some knowledge first then go find a breeder to look at litters.
The male on this mating I would not hesitate...but bred to this female not sure. Can this breeder offer you another litter out of same male with another female.???????
Bandit is gr father to several of my partner back home...both her female out of ISKA and the dog out of Germelhaus..wonderful working lines and Cuzko is under Dave Kroyers training so I know this males heretitary traits..
Knowledge first may prevent a heart ache..and loss of lots of time and sleep with a new pup.
YR
by hexe on 13 July 2012 - 05:07
YR, what in particular are you finding lacking in the dam of this litter, aside from a title & breed survey? She's SV-registered, with 'a1' stamped hips and a ZW of 73, though admittedly I don't see an elbow cert for her; she's a Bandit granddaughter on her sire's side (making this litter a linebreeding on Bandit), and the showlines on her dam's side are definitely not shabby (Enzo Buchhorn's work was well-respected). As working/showline blends go, this one looks pretty darn nice to me...
I'm not so sure about talking to the TD of a local SchH club before choosing a dog, either--maybe it's just me, but an awful lot of TD's put down whatever dog a new member hopeful walks onto the field with unless said TD either bred the dog or brokered it...so the likelyhood of the OP getting an unbiased opinion from that venue might be a longshot at best. Of course, maybe the clubs in the OP's area have TD's that aren't interested primarily in marketing their own dogs. Another question to consider is this: Has the owner of the stud dog been willing to hang his or her dog's name on litters from just any bitch whose owner has the stud fee, or does the stud owner only allow the dog to breed females they consider to be good specimens of the breed? If it's the latter, that would say a great deal about the dam of the litter....
It's all well and good to talk about getting a dog for it's sport potential, but the bottom line is that first and foremost, it sounds like this pup's Number One Job is going to be to be a good and loving family member. If the OP has met the dam of the litter and she was social, approachable and appropriate with his children, and he likes both her and the pups, that's just as important as everything else.
troopscott, as far as prices go, if there's worthwhile warranty** on hips and health, you can buy a puppy out of titled, breed-surveyed parents here in the US for $1200-1500.00 and up, so I would expect the price to be below that, but higher than the prices usually seen for the average 'hobby breeder' litters advertised in the local newspaper (generally $400-500.00, for example).
**I consider a worthwhile warranty to be one that will cover the dog's hips and health AT LEAST until the dog is 24-26 months old, won't require you to return the dog in order to receive the benefit of the warranty, and won't be limited to just being given a discount on another puppy or given a replacement puppy--it needs to have some other option for a buyer who may not want another dog. Personally, I have no interest in warranties, as long as I've been able to confirm that the parents have been cleared for the primary health concerns, but I also won't pay $2000.00 or more for a PUPPY, either, since there's no way to tell how it will develop despite everyone's best efforts and intentions.
I'm not so sure about talking to the TD of a local SchH club before choosing a dog, either--maybe it's just me, but an awful lot of TD's put down whatever dog a new member hopeful walks onto the field with unless said TD either bred the dog or brokered it...so the likelyhood of the OP getting an unbiased opinion from that venue might be a longshot at best. Of course, maybe the clubs in the OP's area have TD's that aren't interested primarily in marketing their own dogs. Another question to consider is this: Has the owner of the stud dog been willing to hang his or her dog's name on litters from just any bitch whose owner has the stud fee, or does the stud owner only allow the dog to breed females they consider to be good specimens of the breed? If it's the latter, that would say a great deal about the dam of the litter....
It's all well and good to talk about getting a dog for it's sport potential, but the bottom line is that first and foremost, it sounds like this pup's Number One Job is going to be to be a good and loving family member. If the OP has met the dam of the litter and she was social, approachable and appropriate with his children, and he likes both her and the pups, that's just as important as everything else.
troopscott, as far as prices go, if there's worthwhile warranty** on hips and health, you can buy a puppy out of titled, breed-surveyed parents here in the US for $1200-1500.00 and up, so I would expect the price to be below that, but higher than the prices usually seen for the average 'hobby breeder' litters advertised in the local newspaper (generally $400-500.00, for example).
**I consider a worthwhile warranty to be one that will cover the dog's hips and health AT LEAST until the dog is 24-26 months old, won't require you to return the dog in order to receive the benefit of the warranty, and won't be limited to just being given a discount on another puppy or given a replacement puppy--it needs to have some other option for a buyer who may not want another dog. Personally, I have no interest in warranties, as long as I've been able to confirm that the parents have been cleared for the primary health concerns, but I also won't pay $2000.00 or more for a PUPPY, either, since there's no way to tell how it will develop despite everyone's best efforts and intentions.
by workingdogz on 13 July 2012 - 08:07
My 2 cents worth? I don't think you could go too wrong with
this breeding.
Hutch is a known producer from proven lines, Blumenkamp
is an older highline kennel that has produced some nice
show lines that could do the work. It's certainly not a 'popular'
breeding, but there have been some very nice working/show
crosses over the years. If the price is right, sire/dam have at
the least minimum health checks done, I think you could
likely do way worse somewhere else
Hell, there are litters advertised right on this board with untitled
sire/dams that have had ZERO testing done.
While I understand why YR urges you to go to a club first, I tend
to agree with Hexe, you would likely be urged to buy from within
the club itself rather than a 'dreaded show/work cross' litter.
If you buy a pup, and take it to a club, LIE and tell them you don't
know the breeding of the pup--that will force them to work what
they see in front of them
As far as price? depends on your market area, and what age of
the pup etc etc. But, I would think a fair price for a pup from a
breeding like this would be between $600-$900 if the min.
health tests have been done. Obviously on the sire, the HD/ED is
done, I'd want to see the mothers paperwork too.
this breeding.
Hutch is a known producer from proven lines, Blumenkamp
is an older highline kennel that has produced some nice
show lines that could do the work. It's certainly not a 'popular'
breeding, but there have been some very nice working/show
crosses over the years. If the price is right, sire/dam have at
the least minimum health checks done, I think you could
likely do way worse somewhere else
Hell, there are litters advertised right on this board with untitled
sire/dams that have had ZERO testing done.
While I understand why YR urges you to go to a club first, I tend
to agree with Hexe, you would likely be urged to buy from within
the club itself rather than a 'dreaded show/work cross' litter.
If you buy a pup, and take it to a club, LIE and tell them you don't
know the breeding of the pup--that will force them to work what
they see in front of them
As far as price? depends on your market area, and what age of
the pup etc etc. But, I would think a fair price for a pup from a
breeding like this would be between $600-$900 if the min.
health tests have been done. Obviously on the sire, the HD/ED is
done, I'd want to see the mothers paperwork too.
by Gustav on 13 July 2012 - 12:07
You would be surprised how differently people see what pups do and look like when they dont know the linage. Many sport clubs are very very biased against SL dogs and would have negative energy because the dog has SL blood in him. Phooey.....the pup seems to have nice blend of genetics, more important is making sure you get a puppy to shows an aptitude for confidence and drive in the litter....the rest will take care of itself.
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