Hock walker? - Page 27

Ibrahim, you can't take mathematics and diagrams and convert that to the functionality of a living animal without error. The SL is what it is because of decades of choices. The WL is what it is because of decades of choices. Trying to undo what the SL has that is undesirable is not going to happen in the overall population BECAUSE of CHOICES. If you want a SOUND SL, go to a breeder that still has them. They do exist. It would be more reasonable to get what is available than to attempt to change the largest part of the SL population. This I am saying with respect to you, not trying to be aggressive or disrespectful.:)

Thanks Joanro, your point of view is well taken and well understood, I assure you of that, I'm trying to address a single point and see what all think of it honestly and not give me a diplomatic no answer (not directed to you Joanro), as when I write in a hurry I loose proper selection of words.

Ibrahim

Just read this thread - started with "hock walking" - ended up with working versus show line....

Ibrahim, I love your attempt to create a German Shepherd looking like the standard says, but...

you can´t look at the forecheast ONLY, you need to watch the neck, the withers, the back, the hindquarters, the muscles, the temperament...

I handled 100s of different German Shepherds during the last 30+ years, it´s not that easy. As a handler you FEEL at once the mistakes of the dog, mostly you can´t explain it, but it´s there...
Although I know the fast trot isn´t good for judging, I love fast gaiting dogs, the faster, the better...BUT a dog needs to be well balanced, not overangulated, for this speed, otherwise it will roll or hobble.

I don´t like the old controverse working/show - ALL of us would love to own a VA-rated healthy winner of the Nationals ( Bundessiegerprüfung for me ). Everybody who says that´s not true is lying.

But there are people who look for working ability first, and then there are people who look for standard first.

The problem are the people who look for working ability/standard ONLY.

Right now working lines can´t be compared to show lines, the structure is too different ( not ALL, but a lot of them ), even the muscles feel different. The showline dogs do have longer muscles, the working lines do have thicker and shorter ones.

Show lines, bred well, are built for floating gaits, working lines are built for speed and power.

Nerve issues I found on BOTH sides ( didn´t depend on the line, that´s for sure ).

The show line breeders should look for well balanced show lines that are able to work, the working line breeders should look for well balanced working lines with V ratings and KKL1, instead of blaming each other.

Could be easy, but people aren´t able to be honest about their own dogs, they don´t want to see the faults in there own breeding....

Ibrahim.... take a wgsl with VA type structure along with a kkl2 wl to an agility field and and work them rigorously and see which one quits/lays down first. Do this 3 times with 3 different pairs of dogs. End of story :)

Susie,

Very interesting and educating indeed, you say: The showline dogs do have longer muscles, the working lines do have thicker and shorter ones.

That is something new to me, is it related to variations in the lengths of bones? or is it due to different genetic background?

Can you please tell what happens when we cross show with work in regards to muscles?
This last question I can understand if you have no ready answer for it.

Thanks

Ibrahim

vomeisenhaus,

I heard different reports from members on this thread on personal experience on endurance of wl and sl. My personal observation is this; one of my 2 wl dogs has tremendous interest in tending sheep, he does not tire at all, or at least that's what looks like. The other one had little interest in tending sheep and he's not very friendly with them. The sl, so far, thinks it is stupid to get him to stay with the sheep and leaves back to home, on the other hand he does not tire of walking and hiking for long distances. Anyway I can hear you.

Ibrahim

Ibrahim, I think what Susie is referring to is fast twitch vs slow twitch muscles. There should be some articles online that you can find but I am on an iPhone so it is hard for me to create links. I would actually say that there is probably a lot of variation in the fast vs slow twitch composition of wl dogs.

I will google that, that is an interesting aspect, thank you Molly

I am not trying to re-open this thread, I only want to say this; a well known German breeder who read this thread sent me a personal e mail with this advice as a way to improve temperament while breeding showlines, start with the best female you can lay your hands on, select a male known for producing good temperament and which compensates your females structure, when litter is on ground, and this is most important thing to do, put aside the puppies with serious structural faults if any, then from remaining choose the puppy with best temperament, keep doing this in future litters and in few generations you will notice that you will start having stronger temperament and drives in your litters, don't get too happy and keep choosing your flag carriers in same criteria. Just for the info

Ibrahim