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by ziegenfarm on 06 February 2014 - 15:02
when you stop to think about some of the folks breeding timmy/troll (staatsmacht & tiekerhook) you know there has to be more there than
meets the eye. don't forget, nick was a grandson of timmy. genetics are wierd & only those who truly know the dogs & generations of
their ancestors can appreciate and predict the outcome of a mating. nick being proof positive that sires & dams who complement each
other bring success. pjp
meets the eye. don't forget, nick was a grandson of timmy. genetics are wierd & only those who truly know the dogs & generations of
their ancestors can appreciate and predict the outcome of a mating. nick being proof positive that sires & dams who complement each
other bring success. pjp
by duke1965 on 06 February 2014 - 18:02
that is oversimplyfiyng things ziegenfarm, there is tons of other dogs on the pedigrees of staatsmacht and tiekerhook, and tons of crappy dogs with these dogs in their peds
by susie on 06 February 2014 - 19:02
| Troll von der bösen Nachbarschaft (Vater: Fero) Teilnehmer BSP |
|||
- 976 Nachkommen - wichtigste Nachkommen: - Yoschy von der Döllenwiese (BSP) (guter Vererber) - Aly vom Vordersteinwald (BSP) (guter Vererber) - Belschick vom Eicken-Bruche (BSP, WUSV-WM) - Rocky von der Zingelgärten (BSP,WUSV-WM) (guter Vererber) - Tim von der Abfuhr (LGA) (guter Vererber)
|
by susie on 06 February 2014 - 19:02
The video of Timmy is ( if I remember well ) out of 1990, at that day he made 88 points, the year before he made 99 points.
Too much training, too much ambition of the helper, failing nerves?
I don´t know - but this video is 24 years old, you wouldn´t like a lot of the top males out of this time by watching a video only.
Training methods changed a lot since then.
Too much training, too much ambition of the helper, failing nerves?
I don´t know - but this video is 24 years old, you wouldn´t like a lot of the top males out of this time by watching a video only.
Training methods changed a lot since then.
by joanro on 06 February 2014 - 19:02
Susie, that's what I thought.
by RLHAR on 06 February 2014 - 21:02
The video of Timmy was very interesting to me and perhaps I can offer some insight for what it's worth.
My male's father was line bred 3x3 with Troll on top Timmy on the bottom through their sons Yoschy and Half. My male is extremely sensitive to me as a handler and when I have made mistakes (and I'm a complete novice so I make many) he is reactive to those. I can correct him with my voice, have never had to use a prong on him in bite work because my voice and a correction on the flat collar cements the lesson in his head. The flip side of this is if I miss my timing and we miscue he can get uncertain and distracted and he will *default* to the last known command he knows is correct (such as fussing back to me or platzing) and it looks like Timmy. It does not take much for *me* to correct my dog in fact I usually have to keep the hell out of his way!
That said, when someone else, a much more experienced handler, corrected him during training, it nearly became a different story. They were trying to help me with something, since they have much better timing/experience with the exercise we were working on and after giving him two pops on the flat collar, then handed me back the leash and said that he would not continue to accept corrections from someone else and I was simply going to have to get my timing right because no one else should handle the dog in bite work. And since that time no one else ever has handled him but me.
He definitely brings more aggression to his bite work than prey and always has. Made him a real project when he was a puppy because he had no prey drive but once he hit about 18 months and it all started to click, he put it together and has never looked back.
My male's father was line bred 3x3 with Troll on top Timmy on the bottom through their sons Yoschy and Half. My male is extremely sensitive to me as a handler and when I have made mistakes (and I'm a complete novice so I make many) he is reactive to those. I can correct him with my voice, have never had to use a prong on him in bite work because my voice and a correction on the flat collar cements the lesson in his head. The flip side of this is if I miss my timing and we miscue he can get uncertain and distracted and he will *default* to the last known command he knows is correct (such as fussing back to me or platzing) and it looks like Timmy. It does not take much for *me* to correct my dog in fact I usually have to keep the hell out of his way!
That said, when someone else, a much more experienced handler, corrected him during training, it nearly became a different story. They were trying to help me with something, since they have much better timing/experience with the exercise we were working on and after giving him two pops on the flat collar, then handed me back the leash and said that he would not continue to accept corrections from someone else and I was simply going to have to get my timing right because no one else should handle the dog in bite work. And since that time no one else ever has handled him but me.
He definitely brings more aggression to his bite work than prey and always has. Made him a real project when he was a puppy because he had no prey drive but once he hit about 18 months and it all started to click, he put it together and has never looked back.
by Nans gsd on 07 February 2014 - 01:02
Rlhar: those are all qualities I absolutely love. Hoping my young boy has even just some of those. good luck with your boy. But sorry I was not impressed with either video; again they are just a small spot on the map. Nan
by Nadeem6 on 07 February 2014 - 01:02
Maybe i dont know much, but i kinda liked both videos. The routines are definitely sloppy by today's standards but i dont see fighting on the sleeve like that much anymore.
There is one dog i train with that is like that, but very few i have done helper work with do that. JMO.
And Timmy looks like he is wondering where the next correction is gonna come from, handler, helper or even judge.
There is one dog i train with that is like that, but very few i have done helper work with do that. JMO.
And Timmy looks like he is wondering where the next correction is gonna come from, handler, helper or even judge.
by Dawulf on 07 February 2014 - 03:02
Urgh, I had this giant reply all typed out and then accidentally closed the window.... ahhh!! 
Jen, I know they were. They were 3 week old little guinea pigs, who wouldn't love them?
(joking aside) I like them because I like their mother. You know I adore Capri! I'd take any of her babies in a heartbeat! She may have kept me up most of that night, but I thoroughly enjoyed the brat, LOL. At this point, pedigrees do not mean a whole hell of a lot to me. I would look at their parents, before I would look at a dog 5 or 6 generations back, just because I am not going to know a thing about what those old dogs bring to the table. I have only started attempting to learn this stuff within the last few years, and the only things I happen to find in any breed discussions is either the bad = "he produced dilutes" "he is in the pedigree of pandas" "he produced back problems"; the stuff for people who already know pedigrees "he crosses good with Fero and Czech dogs"; or the stuff that has a different meaning to each person "he produced too much high drive, reactive aggression". I've started a document on my computer, recently, where I've tried to keep "notes" on some of the more noted producers, and even some of the more current ones, but they are very sparse right now. And I know that a lot of that needs to be learned through experience, but Nebraska is a "deadzone" for SchH/IPO/whatever you wish to call it. Our club has a lot of dogs that are closely related to each other, and it's neat to compare and contrast between dam and pups for example, however that is only a couple of "families" of dogs I've been able to do that with. That is why I tend to watch so many videos online... that is the only way I know how to learn about dogs who are states, if not COUNTRIES away, at this point. It was cool, last year, to have a national event only a couple of hours away, and it was a ton of fun. Next time, I think I want to try to get video rather than pictures, so that I can watch the performances over again in the future. I was even able to meet a couple dogs up close, and checking out their pedigrees, I can see some similarities, but even then, I don't know WHY... If that makes sense. Example being, several dogs I like a lot have Pike vd Schafbachmule in them... but I couldn't tell you what all he brings to the table, and why he is good in a pedigree... because when a dog is 4 generations back, there are 15 other dogs back there as well, with just as much influence as that dog ... if that makes sense.
Kalibeck, thanks for posting you're experience with Beckett. I do know of a couple screamers, and looking at their pedigree again, I also see Timmy (and Troll) on the sire's side... which is who these screamers have in common.
Paul, I have heard that about Fero before. In that case, it is sad that he is becoming such a bottleneck. I can see what you mean about splitting between sport dogs and working dogs.
Mike & Joanro, that is an interesting point I had not considered before. With that in mind (the pre ecollar era), I can definitely see that being the case. Thank you for helping to clear that up a bit.
RLHAR, that is very interesting to hear. Can you define what you mean when you say "reactive", please? I have an idea, I just want to make sure I am getting the right picture in my head. Your boy sounds like the type of dog I would like. Thanks for sharing your experience with him. :)
Nadeem, I had noticed that as well. You really don't see that a lot any more, though I've seen it a couple times, and know a couple of dogs who will fight you on the sleeve. (the one I can think of right now has no Timmy or Troll in him) ... I also like to see that. I suppose the dogs you see it in do not like to "out" right away, and that is a reason... points, points, points.
Alright, so here is another question (or a couple) then, to further the understanding on Timmy and Troll for myself and any other "newb" out there who is wondering. I know Troll was considered the beteter producer, although comparing the number of total offspring to the number of notable offspring, as Susie posted, I almost think that could be argued... so why do you as a breeder like to linebreed on Timmy or Troll? Why do you like to see one or the other, or both in a pedigree? What do they bring to the table seperately, or combined?
I appreciate all of the comments that have been made. Thank you all for helping me understand this a bit better. One day I'll learn.
Jen, I know they were. They were 3 week old little guinea pigs, who wouldn't love them?
(joking aside) I like them because I like their mother. You know I adore Capri! I'd take any of her babies in a heartbeat! She may have kept me up most of that night, but I thoroughly enjoyed the brat, LOL. At this point, pedigrees do not mean a whole hell of a lot to me. I would look at their parents, before I would look at a dog 5 or 6 generations back, just because I am not going to know a thing about what those old dogs bring to the table. I have only started attempting to learn this stuff within the last few years, and the only things I happen to find in any breed discussions is either the bad = "he produced dilutes" "he is in the pedigree of pandas" "he produced back problems"; the stuff for people who already know pedigrees "he crosses good with Fero and Czech dogs"; or the stuff that has a different meaning to each person "he produced too much high drive, reactive aggression". I've started a document on my computer, recently, where I've tried to keep "notes" on some of the more noted producers, and even some of the more current ones, but they are very sparse right now. And I know that a lot of that needs to be learned through experience, but Nebraska is a "deadzone" for SchH/IPO/whatever you wish to call it. Our club has a lot of dogs that are closely related to each other, and it's neat to compare and contrast between dam and pups for example, however that is only a couple of "families" of dogs I've been able to do that with. That is why I tend to watch so many videos online... that is the only way I know how to learn about dogs who are states, if not COUNTRIES away, at this point. It was cool, last year, to have a national event only a couple of hours away, and it was a ton of fun. Next time, I think I want to try to get video rather than pictures, so that I can watch the performances over again in the future. I was even able to meet a couple dogs up close, and checking out their pedigrees, I can see some similarities, but even then, I don't know WHY... If that makes sense. Example being, several dogs I like a lot have Pike vd Schafbachmule in them... but I couldn't tell you what all he brings to the table, and why he is good in a pedigree... because when a dog is 4 generations back, there are 15 other dogs back there as well, with just as much influence as that dog ... if that makes sense.Kalibeck, thanks for posting you're experience with Beckett. I do know of a couple screamers, and looking at their pedigree again, I also see Timmy (and Troll) on the sire's side... which is who these screamers have in common.
Paul, I have heard that about Fero before. In that case, it is sad that he is becoming such a bottleneck. I can see what you mean about splitting between sport dogs and working dogs.
Mike & Joanro, that is an interesting point I had not considered before. With that in mind (the pre ecollar era), I can definitely see that being the case. Thank you for helping to clear that up a bit.
RLHAR, that is very interesting to hear. Can you define what you mean when you say "reactive", please? I have an idea, I just want to make sure I am getting the right picture in my head. Your boy sounds like the type of dog I would like. Thanks for sharing your experience with him. :)
Nadeem, I had noticed that as well. You really don't see that a lot any more, though I've seen it a couple times, and know a couple of dogs who will fight you on the sleeve. (the one I can think of right now has no Timmy or Troll in him) ... I also like to see that. I suppose the dogs you see it in do not like to "out" right away, and that is a reason... points, points, points.
Alright, so here is another question (or a couple) then, to further the understanding on Timmy and Troll for myself and any other "newb" out there who is wondering. I know Troll was considered the beteter producer, although comparing the number of total offspring to the number of notable offspring, as Susie posted, I almost think that could be argued... so why do you as a breeder like to linebreed on Timmy or Troll? Why do you like to see one or the other, or both in a pedigree? What do they bring to the table seperately, or combined?
I appreciate all of the comments that have been made. Thank you all for helping me understand this a bit better. One day I'll learn.
by vk4gsd on 07 February 2014 - 03:02
yeah troll/timmy are so bad that you rarely see any modern dogs with them in their ped. that line just became extinct viola, just like that...
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