Should SV do away with Schutzhund and replace it with PSA? - Page 4

In the military we had twenty five dogs in the tracking unit....15 Labs and 10 GS. These dogs could track for miles through any type surface, with 2 to 6 hour aging. I mean literally miles, and through all types of terrain, thickets, wind, surfaces, asphalt, concrete, I mean they were amazing. (Of course that was there sole job and training) But my point is that the worst Lab was a stronger tracker than the best GS although they were all good.Sch tracking is precision based in a controlled environment....no matter how you cut it. LE, military, and SAR do not get to pick the terrain or distances that are asked of the dog. There are posts here that really dont have a clue what it takes for dogs to work outside of practiced conditions.

I used to see more GS in LE work, but now its Mals hands down.

Gustav,
Real world tracking has nothing to do with precision, it has everything to do with getting to the end of the track. I have been in LE for over 20yrs. inside and on the street and most dogs in LE couldn't score in the sport because of the demands for style and precision. On the street the dog just has to find the object or suspect and can do so with a high nose or lifting of the head or changing speed during the track or zig-zagging in and out of odor, etc... Dogs in LE or Military don't get to pick their surfaces but they don't have to perform with any constraints either. Some of the worst tracking dogs I've seen were on our PD. When taken out and evaluated at a trial, none could pass a Sch1 track laid by the handlers. All real world tracking is done in practiced conditions unless the dog has never been trained to track because the dog had to be trained in those conditions to begin with. Any performance real world or sport has to be achieved through repetition of practiced conditions. JMO

Bob,
I agree, the sport has not been the best for the genetics of the breed. Too many flavor of the month breeders or the newest stud import breeders in America. When I went to Germany in 1990 I saw some great dogs that never competed at the LGA or BSP but were used in certain areas and produced super offspring. The people who knew, knew. Good trainers and handlers can make a marginal dog look great and people who don't know, breed to that dog and never get what they were hoping for. That's not the sport's fault, that is the fault of a breeder who doesn't know what they are looking at when evaluating a stud. My first Shepherd was out of a Gildo son in 1991 and his sire was no top sport dog but a great producer. Breeders need to do a better job evaluating what makes a good stud dog and it's not points!!! 

True, but for some, points sell pups better, LOL.

Gutav this dog on the right has 5 hr track with apprehension on the end
and almost 30 apprehensions with bite and at least 3x as much without bite because suspect gave up. Take a note that it is not a Malinois. His name is Jonny. The dog on the left is dog Roky has about 12 + tracking apprehensions also not a Mali. :
And I can go on and on.  Thus not all are Malis. :) The people who understand dogs still use GSDs. ( I am ducking. )

Prager Hans

@ ejax, I THINK I said SCH was precision and that LE /SAR/Military training was different in terms of terrain, distances, and environment. I have trained police, military and SCH dogs to titles and certifications....I have worked the difference . I think you misunderstood my post.

Hans, I think I said that I used to see mostly GS in LE work, but today I see more Mals. In other words, 15 years ago I saw more GS, especially Czech dogs on the streets than anything. Also you still had plenty of Labs and GS in detection work. Today there are still Labs, and GS in both fields of LE, but I see far far more Mals than I used to and actually as many Mals TODAY as other breeds combined. Doesn't mean there aren't still GS out there working, but they are NOT the number one preface anymore for many reasons ranging from health, temperament, and cost. Regardless of the reasons, the Mal is being acquired more frequently than ever, and people can see it anytime you see LE dogs deployed. I don't deal in absolutes, so I would never say GS aren't still out there working, and I will never own a Mal, but I also don't lie to myself about what I am seeing today compared to 20 years ago.

in the past 2 years, i've helped put 4 dogs on the streets here, all GSD's.  a neighboring city just added 2 GSD's.  The city I  currently live in have a Mal, a dutch shepherd and 2 GSD's and another GSD that was just paired with a new handler and both should be certified in another month or so.  Mal's don't out number anything around here.

I have put 5 dogs on the streets in past 7 years, all GS....so I feel you, but when I go to regional police trainings, I go to national police trials, regional trials, or just plain look at dogs deployed today, I see a lot of Mals. Ask brokers that actually provide dogs to police as their primary business and see what they tell you. I think you may be surprised. Anyway, it doesn't make a difference what I think....lol, either the breed is still tops in LE work or it has lost it's spot, breeders should be aware of this for the health of the breed, IMO.